Let's talk 9mm hand guns

[Sigarms]

Read recently in real life encounters 90% of first shots taken miss the target. Don't know if it was based on fact or an internet statistic. Regardless, I'd rather be missed by a larger caliber than hit by a 9 mm

I believe you can also read that most handgun fights generally end with the exchange of 3 rounds or less. However, reading how many times LEO's dump their mags, not sure if that is true or not, but I could believe it.

I do believe it's ALL about shot placement.

Take a .22LR in the human head at a short distance even with sub sonic ammo, and chances are it's going to be a slow death but a pretty quick incapacitation.

 

[RoyJackson]

Getting off handguns but in the same line of thinking that the government doesn't know what they are doing, it's just like AR-15 discussions and people thinking that mil spec is king **** when it comes to AR rifles because it's the military. Got news for you, mil spec means jack crap when it comes to what's actually "best" out there, but again, because it's the Military, for some reason people think that if something is mil spec, it's the absolute best out there, which can be far from the truth. I thought the standard Colt M-16 sucked in the early 80's, and it was refreshing to know that talking with some guys still in, Colt still seems to suck. But guess what, it's mil spec!

That's very true, Joe...people who are all enamored with "Mil-Spec" obviously never worked with "Mil-Specs".
But "Mil-Spec" sure sells guns (normally at a higher price)!

 

[widefat]

One thing for sure, the 9-40-45 debate will never end. There is an interesting letter in the June G&A. The responder is Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician at Hornady. Seems like a fella that may know something on the subject.

 

[TomSeller]

That's very true, Joe...people who are all enamored with "Mil-Spec" obviously never worked with "Mil-Specs".
But "Mil-Spec" sure sells guns (normally at a higher price)!

You have that right.

 

[k0ua]

One thing for sure, the 9-40-45 debate will never end. There is an interesting letter in the June G&A. The responder is Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician at Hornady. Seems like a fella that may know something on the subject.

View attachment 507688

I too think the Hornady guy might have some insight and scientific experience that might place his opinion just a little ahead of some of the rest of us. I tell you what, I own firearms in all 3 calibers, 9 .40 and .45, and I don't want to be hit by a round out of any of them. I also feel that if the 9 is stoked with the proper rounds, it will stop aggressors just like the larger ones. For that matter with some of the newer high performance .22LR rounds and with proper shot placement, I would not want to be hit with one of those either. Many peoples opinions were formed by their fathers and grandfathers experiences, and it just does not hold for modern rounds developed in the last 10 years or less. Things have improved and I mean a bunch.

 

[RoyJackson]

I too think the Hornady guy might have some insight and scientific experience that might place his opinion just a little ahead of some of the rest of us.

Yeah, I agree...but it ain't gonna change anybody's mind or opinion


Well, got through 200 rounds of 9mm in the Kahr CW9. About 180 were S&B jacketed ammo (not hollow point) and one box (20 rounds) of Hornady Critical Defense (Hollow Point...great ammo!)
No FTF or FTE, so I guess it's broken in. I'll start carrying this gun and giving the old Taurus 85 a break.
This gun, undoubtedly, has the hardest magazines I've ever loaded. The magazines (one with the gun, two factory magazines I bought later) hold 7 rounds. It's a struggle to get 5 rounds in them. They're starting to loosen up a bit, but I think it'll be a few (or more) hundred rounds through them before they'll be relatively easy to load.
Hope my fingers and thumb hold up that long!

All told though, this is going to be a great carry gun...both as a pocket pistol and an easily concealed OWB carry gun.

I finished up and submitted all the documents required for the suppressor (a CGS HYDRA-SS for a 22LR) this morning
CGS Hydra Stainless Suppressor Review - YouTube
Now, I wait...

 

[k0ua]

Yeah, I agree...but it ain't gonna change anybody's mind or opinion


Well, got through 200 rounds of 9mm in the Kahr CW9. About 180 were S&B jacketed ammo (not hollow point) and one box (20 rounds) of Hornady Critical Defense (Hollow Point...great ammo!)
No FTF or FTE, so I guess it's broken in. I'll start carrying this gun and giving the old Taurus 85 a break.
This gun, undoubtedly, has the hardest magazines I've ever loaded. The magazines (one with the gun, two factory magazines I bought later) hold 7 rounds. It's a struggle to get 5 rounds in them. They're starting to loosen up a bit, but I think it'll be a few (or more) hundred rounds through them before they'll be relatively easy to load.
Hope my fingers and thumb hold up that long!

All told though, this is going to be a great carry gun...both as a pocket pistol and an easily concealed OWB carry gun.

I finished up and submitted all the documents required for the suppressor (a CGS HYDRA-SS for a 22LR) this morning
CGS Hydra Stainless Suppressor Review - YouTube
Now, I wait...

I have several of the Kahr's. I guess I have gotten used to the stiff magazines. The pistols work and shoot well. As for the suppressor's, maybe someday we can get over this ridiculous paperwork and fee and wait time for these. I hope so. It is just stupid.

 

[teejk]

One thing for sure, the 9-40-45 debate will never end. There is an interesting letter in the June G&A. The responder is Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician at Hornady. Seems like a fella that may know something on the subject.

View attachment 507688

I saw that article (and several others perhaps in the NRA magazine) that led me to post that the thinking on the 9mm is changing...I made the mistake of mentioning the FBI...some people took offense on that (seems that everybody is quick to argue just about anything these days). My son went through police training and was convinced that the .40S&W was the superior load (he owns one). Since then he bought a 9mm. He is kinda on the fence at the moment. Btw he never mentioned the .45ACP.

 

[Zerk]

Personally I don't think 20 rounds of your carry ammo is enough to prove the ammo. Myself would be 1-200. But take it serious.

 

[Zerk]

PLEASE let's throw the federal goverment out of this conversation when it comes to guns. For some reason, people think that the government actually thinks they know what they are doing

It was the same FBI that determined that the 9mm was insufficient as a defensive round becauase of the cluster **** in Miami.

Getting off handguns but in the same line of thinking that the government doesn't know what they are doing, it's just like AR-15 discussions and people thinking that mil spec is king **** when it comes to AR rifles because it's the military. Got news for you, mil spec means jack crap when it comes to what's actually "best" out there, but again, because it's the Military, for some reason people think that if something is mil spec, it's the absolute best out there, which can be far from the truth. I thought the standard Colt M-16 sucked in the early 80's, and it was refreshing to know that talking with some guys still in, Colt still seems to suck. But guess what, it's mil spec!

They were under powered with 9mm. 9mm is better than it was, but it is still not a powerhouse.


Sure you shoot someone in the heart, they are done. But sometimes in the real world, it doesn't all line up.

In Miami they had a few non fatal shots, that may have been better if they were harder hitting and broke bones.

40mm may be a good compromise. Some people may handle 45 and 10s just fine. Just because some agents cant, doesn't men others cant, and they should.