Current on a 12 gauge wire

[mbohuntr]

Where in my post did I say 28a was okay for 12ga?

And, as has already been discussed, you either use a double breaker or handle ties on a MWBC. That way you CANNOT inadvertently "break open a neutral connection" on a live circuit. You open the breaker for the MWBC and BOTH line 1 AND line 2 become de-energized. Thus no current on the neutral.

This is a classic case of people only like what they are familiar with and all else is taboo. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a MWBC, and poses no greater risk than a standard circuit. Any good electrician can quickly identify a MWBC and would have no issues working on/around that circuit.

As to the benefits, I think its all been covered. Less wire, less knockouts, less drilling holes in studs to make the runs, less heat generated in the circuit with fewer current carrying conductors, etc. No, it dont sound like much on a short run, but lets say you are wiring the bedrooms at the far end of the house. And ~150' of wire required to make the run. And you want two circuits in each bedroom. So, do you pull 150' of 12/2 FOUR times, or 12/3 twice? Lots of labor saved, lots of time saved, lots of material saved. And works just the same as if each had their own neutral.

Not trying to pick a fight, your right, done and always serviced by a qualified electrician, there is no problem. I have worked on several homes that were wired by qualified electricians, but later modified by people that possessed various levels of skill and knowledge. How many would know the risks of removing the handle tie, What is the total FLA on the neutral if both appliances were on simultaneously?

You were sharing neutrals on BR circuits, harder to overload than high draw circuits like dishwashers and such.

I always wire things as simple as possible so a housewife can run to the panel and immediately find the right breaker.

Since I am always working with 3 phase circuits, I never trust a neutral. I wire things so the homeowner has to go out of their way to get in trouble.

 

[Deere Dude]

Yes, I never have a problem.

Use this method: Insert the stranded, smaller wire all the way into the wire nut first. Then, put them both over the solid wire(s), and turn.

Using this trick, the smaller wire cannot be pushed out, when tightening the nut.

I was wiring y new house and asked an industrial electrician if I would be better off running 12 ga for lights instead of 14 ga for lights. He reached into his pocket and feigned throwing money on the ground. I got the picture. 14 ga. for lighting circuits after that.

 

[ray66v]

I was wiring y new house and asked an industrial electrician if I would be better off running 12 ga for lights instead of 14 ga for lights. He reached into his pocket and feigned throwing money on the ground. I got the picture. 14 ga. for lighting circuits after that.

Some feel way the same about using copper for service entrance. Aluminum is cheaper, using copper is throwing money away too.

I'm still going to use copper.

 

[mbohuntr]

I was wiring y new house and asked an industrial electrician if I would be better off running 12 ga for lights instead of 14 ga for lights. He reached into his pocket and feigned throwing money on the ground. I got the picture. 14 ga. for lighting circuits after that.

The most common thing I've seen is people paralleling a 14 ga wire onto a 20 amp circuit breaker! The breaker needs to be the weakest link in the circuit.

14 ga. is fine for lighting... .. As far as using aluminum for service entrance, It's fine as long as no-ox is applied under all the lugs, and periodic inspections are done by the homeowner looking for hot spots. My first house had it installed before I was born, and i'm not young anymore..

 

[aczlan]

How many would know the risks of removing the handle tie

If you don't know what a handle tie is (or to ask what it is for) you shouldn't be taking the cover off of the panel box...

What is the total FLA on the neutral if both appliances were on simultaneously?

You do realize that being as the two legs of the circuit are on opposite legs of the panel, pulling 1500W on both sides will result in 0W on the neutral right?

Aaron Z

 

[dstig1]

Some feel way the same about using copper for service entrance. Aluminum is cheaper, using copper is throwing money away too.

I'm still going to use copper.

More power to ya! I can't find copper in anything over 4/0, and it is just darn near impossible to bend. That's why it is all alum in the bigger gages. I'm all for going well above code, and I always do on many things. Using 20a lighting circuits is not going above code, it is just a preference of yours. As long as a circuit is correctly wired and loaded, it is irrelevant if it is 20a or 15a. Except that 14ga wire works a lot more easily with the thin fixture wires, no question. I've done plenty of both, and I picked 14ga as my standard for these for that very good reason. You are entitled to your preferences as well...

 

[Deere Dude]

Some feel way the same about using copper for service entrance. Aluminum is cheaper, using copper is throwing money away too.

I'm still going to use copper.

A similar thing happened to me at a Menards store. I was looking for some copper entrance cable which I needed 450 feet. 150' x 3 wires. I asked the employee about the price and he happened to be an electrician at one time he said, He asked why I wanted copper and I told him I wanted something durable that will last and not have any problems down the road.

He then steered me to aluminum and I asked why. He said that is what power companies use and if they use it for hook up to a meter, why wouldn't it work for a service run. I got aluminum and worked fine for 12 years I owned the house.

 

[buickanddeere]

If you think paying a qualified electrical is expensive, then find out how much hiring an unqualified electrician will cost you.

 

[mbohuntr]

If you don't know what a handle tie is (or to ask what it is for) you shouldn't be taking the cover off of the panel box...

You do realize that being as the two legs of the circuit are on opposite legs of the panel, pulling 1500W on both sides will result in 0W on the neutral right?

Aaron Z

My whole point is that you people stand by your assumption that every homeowner consult a licensed electrician and that no homeowner has ever moved a breaker. Reality is very different. "Uncle Joe" will continue to be called, and may just move a breaker. FLA on a BR is very different than a appliance, and having two of those on a single neutral is not a place I want to be.

 

[GregbkH]

As to the 12/3 not showing back up at the breaker box.....try to follow that wire. At first I though since it didnt show up, possibly the red wire was being used as the traveller between a pair of 3-way light switches. But you said that wire is feeding one of the outlets for the kitchen island....so ......without first hand eyes on and following the wire to see where things go....hard to say just what you have going on.

It is possible that the electrician ran out of 12/2 and used 12/3 instead and just cut the red wire off. I've seen it a few times.