Regeneration

[GregP27]

Not out of the question since electric motors can be designed to give max torque at zero shaft speed. Most trains are diesel-electric, and all the very large dump trucks are, too (Terex Titan, et al).

But we are then still left with a diesel if we go diesel-electric. Not too sure I'd want a battery-powered unit. I might rather have an internal combustion engine driving a generator to run the electric motors. I'm sure we could come up with an engine that was efficient and did not require a DPF, even if it had to be a gas engine rather than diesel. Diesels have characteristics that make then suited for hauling loads, But if they only have to drive a generator, maybe the throttle (to the engine, not the electric motor) could be made automatic. All the operator would do is control a pulse width modulation pedal, like in a battery-powered fork lift today.

That might be OK and even desirable. Not sure if the electric motors could handle deep water and mud like we see now with engine-driven tractors, but perhaps they could be made to be able to do that and still be cooled adequately. Sounds like an interesting journey resulting in an interesting vehicle.

 

[xcgreene]

Not out of the question since electric motors can be designed to give max torque at zero shaft speed. Most trains are diesel-electric, and all the very large dump trucks are, too (Terex Titan, et al).

But we are then still left with a diesel if we go diesel-electric. Not too sure I'd want a battery-powered unit. I might rather have an internal combustion engine driving a generator to run the electric motors. I'm sure we could come up with an engine that was efficient and did not require a DPF, even if it had to be a gas engine rather than diesel. Diesels have characteristics that make then suited for hauling loads, But if they only have to drive a generator, maybe the throttle (to the engine, not the electric motor) could be made automatic. All the operator would do is control a pulse width modulation pedal, like in a battery-powered fork lift today.

That might be OK and even desirable. Not sure if the electric motors could handle deep water and mud like we see now with engine-driven tractors, but perhaps they could be made to be able to do that and still be cooled adequately. Sounds like an interesting journey resulting in an interesting vehicle.

There are already electric motors built today that are designed to be submerged. There are 70hp electric motors that are submerged in oil based mud to agitate in our pits onboard.

I was just using diesel electric as an example of electric motors being ready for the task. A tractor could gain efficiency from a diesel electric setup, but only if coupled with battery storage onboard. Upon high load spikes, the battery is used along with the generator to keep that engine running at its optimum efficiency, not high loaded. Without the battery, the load spikes are all the same for the engine, whether powering through an electric motor, or powering a hydraulic pump, or clutch transmission. I don't think it would ever be cost effective to have an electric motor/generator, batteries, VFD, AND a diesel in a tractor.

But having said that, Hybrid cars do this exact thing, but they too are migrating to 100% electric. I think tractors may skip this hybrid tech all together. That large battery factory in Nevada may become the largest building in the world. With Tesla planning to build 3 more worldwide. Others will follow suit according to panasonic, LG Chem, Samsung SDI, and GE. Never has so much money been put into battery tech R&D. We can be sure this is a sign of things to come.

Traditional energy companies are trying to hold it in at the seems to give the infrastructure time to catch up.

 

[GregP27]

All I want is the "Mr. Fusion" converter from "Back to the Future."

Then I can have Gigawatts from beer cans and banana peels, giving us still another good reason to drink beer!

 

[xcgreene]

All I want is the "Mr. Fusion" converter from "Back to the Future."

Then I can have Gigawatts from beer cans and banana peels, giving us still another good reason to drink beer!

For less than $300, surly its cheaper than all the regen equipment.
Amazon.com: Diamond Select Toys Back to the Future 2: Mr. Fusion Electronic Prop Replica Statue: Toys & Games

 

[finn1]

I don't know anything specific about Mahindra's emissions strategy, but, if they truly aren't using a DPF on some tractor /engine families, there are a couple of ways to execute that strategy.

First, they could have produced a bank of engines designed and certified to meet previous emission standards . If the engines were assembled and banked, they can legally be used to power current tractors.

Second, Mahindra could have been banking emission credits if their engines were certified to emit emissions below the previous standards. In that case, one can accumulate credits , bank the accumulated credits for future use, and spend those credits at a discount on engines produced now.

They can also purchase credits from other manufacturers who may have accumulated a surplus, although this is an unlikely scenario.

I guess there is also the scenario that they are cheating, like VW was on NOx emissions, but that's pretty hard to do for particulates.

It would be interesting to see the published emission certification documents Mahindra submitted to the EPA .

There's no magic to emission compliance. All of the manufacturers use the same suppliers for components like turbochargers and fuel systems.

 

[GregP27]

I've been wondering about that a lot. If Mahindra can build a diesel without DPF to meet tier 4, why can't anyone else?

It would be nice to know, but I wouldn't even know where to go to find out, short of driving a Mahindra into an emissions center for a checkout ... at my own expense.

 

[Btown]

I don't know anything specific about Mahindra's emissions strategy, but, if they truly aren't using a DPF on some tractor /engine families, there are a couple of ways to execute that strategy.

First, they could have produced a bank of engines designed and certified to meet previous emission standards . If the engines were assembled and banked, they can legally be used to power current tractors.

Second, Mahindra could have been banking emission credits if their engines were certified to emit emissions below the previous standards. In that case, one can accumulate credits , bank the accumulated credits for future use, and spend those credits at a discount on engines produced now.

They can also purchase credits from other manufacturers who may have accumulated a surplus, although this is an unlikely scenario.

I guess there is also the scenario that they are cheating, like VW was on NOx emissions, but that's pretty hard to do for particulates.

It would be interesting to see the published emission certification documents Mahindra submitted to the EPA .

There's no magic to emission compliance. All of the manufacturers use the same suppliers for components like turbochargers and fuel systems.

They are using a EGR/DOC to accomplish this. They have had issues. I think they are on like their 3rd reflash or so. Hopefully they can figure it out.

Did you see the study on diesel emissions in Europe. VW was one of the least polluting diesels tested. The results here were a little blown out of context granted they programmed their cars to do this was stupid and they paid the price.

 

[Turbys_1700]

New Holland uses the same technology on the Workmaster Utility series. I bought a 50 last May. I currently have over 120 trouble free hours on the tractor n

 

[finn1]

EGR and a DOC don't address particulate matter.

The DOC oxidizes hydrocarbons and the EGR adds inert (exhaust) gas to the combustion chamber to lower combustion temperatures and subsequently reduce NOx emissions.

If anything, EGR increases soot /particulate emissions, although there is a trade off, as timing can be advanced at a given NOx emission level as EGR rates are increased.

 

[Btown]

EGR and a DOC don't address particulate matter.

The DOC oxidizes hydrocarbons and the EGR adds inert (exhaust) gas to the combustion chamber to lower combustion temperatures and subsequently reduce NOx emissions.

If anything, EGR increases soot /particulate emissions, although there is a trade off, as timing can be advanced at a given NOx emission level as EGR rates are increased.

A DOC is a Diesel Oxidation Catalyst. It works like the Catalytic converter in your car to break down particles. Many Mahindra owners state they their tractors still have smoke. There are several other tractor manufacturers that use a EGR/DOC instead of a DPF like AGCO, New Holland and several others. I even saw some stuff that said Kubota was going to go this route also. These engines produce very little hp for their size. A 2.0 L in a tractor makes 40-50 hp. In a vehicle it would be making over 140 hp