25HP HST tractors and low range speed.

[Rock Crawler]

This is my second post in this section as I examine options with new tractors in the 25/26 HP range.

I initially thought a SCUT would be what I wanted, but after going out and looking at them, I'm at the decision that a small CUT is more realistic.

I went and test drove a LS XJ2025 up in Sandy lake Pa on Friday, and I noticed that the low range Max speed for mowing is MUCH faster than the max low range speed of the LS MT125. The MT125 would kill me as a mower.

Then I went to a Mahindra dealer and test drove the Max 26XL, very slow low range and the high range would not allow the TLB to begin moving on a slight grade. The high range would be useless, thus crushing my interest in this machine. It's too slow in low range and will not move in high range unless the ground is nearly level.

I don't have level ground.

So next I want to try the Massey Ferguson 1526 3 range hydro tractor. I have dealer telling me that he's sold the 1526 as a TLB with MMM. I have another dealer saying that it can't be done... You can not do the hoe on a 1526. I'm still exploring this and looking for truth. I'm interested in that mid range for mowing speed, I'm looking for 6-7 mph mowing on a 17 degree cross hill.

I also want to check out the Kabota B2320 3 range hydro to see how it works.

I was saddened that the Mahindra was just unable to pull off a start on a mild grade in high range. They really need to address that. The LS tractor has much more pull in high range, and much more suited in low range. A totally more useful tractor.

Are there any other models that I should looking at while trying to be around $26,000 or less for a CUT TLB/MMM that has the ability to cut at speeds of 6-7 mph?

Any of them will move themselves with low range with the loader and hoe, but not all have the ability to cut equal to my garden tractor speeds.

 

[CincyFlyer]

This is my second post in this section as I examine options with new tractors in the 25/26 HP range.

I initially thought a SCUT would be what I wanted, but after going out and looking at them, I'm at the decision that a small CUT is more realistic.

I went and test drove a LS XJ2025 up in Sandy lake Pa on Friday, and I noticed that the low range Max speed for mowing is MUCH faster than the max low range speed of the LS MT125. The MT125 would kill me as a mower.

Then I went to a Mahindra dealer and test drove the Max 26XL, very slow low range and the high range would not allow the TLB to begin moving on a slight grade. The high range would be useless, thus crushing my interest in this machine. It's too slow in low range and will not move in high range unless the ground is nearly level.

I don't have level ground.

So next I want to try the Massey Ferguson 1526 3 range hydro tractor. I have dealer telling me that he's sold the 1526 as a TLB with MMM. I have another dealer saying that it can't be done... You can not do the hoe on a 1526. I'm still exploring this and looking for truth. I'm interested in that mid range for mowing speed, I'm looking for 6-7 mph mowing on a 17 degree cross hill.

I also want to check out the Kabota B2320 3 range hydro to see how it works.

I was saddened that the Mahindra was just unable to pull off a start on a mild grade in high range. They really need to address that. The LS tractor has much more pull in high range, and much more suited in low range. A totally more useful tractor.

Are there any other models that I should looking at while trying to be around $26,000 or less for a CUT TLB/MMM that has the ability to cut at speeds of 6-7 mph?

Any of them will move themselves with low range with the loader and hoe, but not all have the ability to cut equal to my garden tractor speeds.

I'm utterly astounded that the Max wouldn't move except on level ground. Did you give it some throttle? Run it to PTO speed?

 

[Rock Crawler]

Full operating throttle, and stood on the HST pedal and got a loud high whine. The dealer told me that it's a constant complaint from customers over here on the hills. He says you just use low range and get used to it, but I'm not looking to triple the time it takes me to mow. And I'm not buying a zero turn when for $3,000 I can buy a 7mph Husqvarna fast cut tractor... That is what I use now but branded as Craftsman.

I want to just maintain my cut speed that $3,000 buys me, but add $22,000 to it and get the loader/backhoe and near lifetime product rather than every 500-1000 hours of service need to buy a new tractor.

 

[quotejso]

You check out the xg3025 I don't think it has a mid mount mower. Maybe check out Kioti.

 

[Rock Crawler]

I've got to have a mid mount mower, and I wish there was a Kioti dealer within 2 hours of me.

The only Kioti one I see is a guy a couple hours away that has a picture on the site of his 2 bay garage with 2 Kioti tractors on stock.

Looks very much like a dealer that may not make the year.... And then I'd be really in a bad position of I needed help. I'd like to buy a brand that at least has some regional dealer support, this takes McCormick, Yanmar, Kioti and TYM out of the running.

I'm looking at Deere, Kabota, Massey, Mahindra, LS, New Holland. And LS is pushing it... That was an hour and 20 minute drive each way... But for the best product I'll go that far. So far that one is the best, but I've got some test driving to do.

 

[s219]

Full operating throttle, and stood on the HST pedal and got a loud high whine.

By "stood" do you mean mashed it all the way down? If so, that was probably why it whined and did not move. The farther you push an HST pedal/treadle, the higher the effective gear ratio, so by mashing it all the way down you basically went right into high-high. My neighbor has a Max and it has no problems in high that I ever noticed. The tractor has some other things I don't like but the HST is not one of them.

 

[Rock Crawler]

I tried to move without mashing it, tried the typical add pedal to look for motion.... No motion as the whine progressed. So I thought, WTF, let's kick this SOB straight down and see if it will move at all. That was no better. Again, the dealer says that yes, this is normal and that on our typical/regional 10-20 degree yards these will not move in high range and customers forever complain about it. So it's not a shock to him. I'd be fine with it if the low range speed were similar to the LS CUT, but my goodness is the Max slow as molasses in low range.

 

[DK35vince]

The only Kioti one I see is a guy a couple hours away that has a picture on the site of his 2 bay garage with 2 Kioti tractors on stock.

There is a Kioti dealer in Kittanning -Armstrong Truck and tractor
Lamb and Webster- Grove City is also a Kioti and Case dealer. Both closer to you than the Sandy Lake LS dealer.

 

[Grandad4]

I'm interested in that mid range for mowing speed, I'm looking for 6-7 mph mowing on a 17 degree cross hill.

Are there any other models that I should looking at while trying to be around $26,000 or less for a CUT TLB/MMM that has the ability to cut at speeds of 6-7 mph?

6-7 mph should be OK on flat, smooth ground, but sideways on a 17 deg slope? All it would take is a slight bump or hump and things could get very sporting. Maybe it's just me, but I take side slopes nice and slow for safety reasons. Particularly when you get into a CUT with larger wheels, more ground clearance and higher COG.

But your comments about gearing make a point about the value of the 3 range transmissions. Hope you find one that works for your situation.

 

[Rock Crawler]

So, would you choose to side cut a 17 degree 3 acre yard with a CUT, or cut up and down? I go side to side because the yard is a long rectangle, going side to side along it means way less abuse of the Hydro unit on the GT, maintaining full 6-mph speeds and fast turn around at each end. I only cut up/back down in reverse on the 32 degree bank, and I believe that this area is what cooks my hydro transaxle in these garden tractors. This bank is also why I need the belly mower, I couldn't back up it and if I pulled up with a pull behind finish mower I would have a huge swath to weed eat ��

The problem with the SCUT is the light weight and weaker hydraulic performance. I desire to move the lower edge of the yard back about 15-20 feet into the woods over time. That will require a few hundred trees being dig out over a few years. The trees aren't overly large as this was all cut 16" and larger about 20 years back. It's about time to sell the standing timber again, and then use this for clean up and pushing the trees/stumps/brush back to add additional maintained yard on the low side.

I know there is no one single perfect machine for me, so my goal is to find the unit with the least short comings.

 

[quotejso]

Kubota has the most options available with a mmm. I was going to go with the Massey scut only downside was no ssqa. Then I decided if I was going to get a tractor it needed somewhat large rear tires. So I went with the XG3025. I am new to operating a tractor so I haven't tried any slopes yet. No doubt load the rear tires on whatever you get and make sure they are spaced as wide as possible.

 

[Mauser12]

I have a MAX26 XL and it has no issues in high range. If anything I would describe high range as a little low. I am thinking it may have been the specific tractor that you drove.

 

[Grandad4]

So, would you choose to side cut a 17 degree 3 acre yard with a CUT, or cut up and down? I go side to side because the yard is a long rectangle, going side to side along it means way less abuse of the Hydro unit on the GT, maintaining full 6-mph speeds and fast turn around at each end. I only cut up/back down in reverse on the 32 degree bank, and I believe that this area is what looks my hydro transaxle in these garden tractors. This bank is also why I need the belly mower, I couldn't back up it and if I pulled up with a pull behind finish mower I would have a huge swath to weed eat ��

The problem with the SCUT is the light weight and weaker hydraulic performance. I desire to move the lower edge of the yard back about 15-20 feet into the woods over time. That will require a few hundred trees being dig out over a few years. The trees aren't overly large as this was all cut 16" and larger about 20 years back. It's about time to sell the standing timber again, and then use this for clean up and pushing the annals back to add yard on the low side.

I know there is no one single perfect machine for me, so my goal is to find the unit with the least short comings.

Generally safer to go up/down instead of across a slope (tractors are narrower than they are in length; hence a rollover happens sooner than a wheelie). Hydro trannies in a CUT or SCUT are in a whole different league from those in GT's and lawn tractors. Much more rugged, climbing slopes isn't an issue.

Have been using my SCUT since 2005... relative to the GT it replaced, it's double the weight and eats hills for breakfast. The hydraulics are plenty for a 2,000 lb machine. Admittedly I used a much bigger tractor for really heavy work, but with your mowing requirements, the low COG of a SCUT vs. a larger CUT would get my attention.

6-7 mph is wide-open, full tilt boogie for a lawn tractor; it's 80% of top speed for a SCUT, and it's 60% of top speed for a CUT (round numbers). I sure don't mow at that speed... my fillings would fall out, and my place doesn't have hills! If your acreage demands you do that to get it done, a better option is getting something with a wider deck. If you're just high energy, try to dial it back some... both you and the equipment will last longer! :laughing:

 

[oldballs]

In 2009 I owned a BX SCUT (two range HST). Low range was too slow and high was too fast. Then in 2012 I moved to the B2620 CUT with the mid range HST. Now I'm pleased with the ground speed for MMM mowing in the mid range.

 

[Rock Crawler]

Our property is a long rectangle, the long side is along the top and bottom of the hillside that we are built on, and I've found that to maximize mowing efficiency and reduce wear and tear on the hydrostatic units that mowing side to side long ways is by far the best option. Before we went to this, we cut the perimeter and worked in towards the center with 4 corners that each require a back-up to re-position. That adds time of around 15-20 seconds per corner. Then I GPS clock my speed going up hill and find that I bounce between 3 and 4 MPH uphill full tilt, going across I am 6-7 MPH and going on a downward angle I am at 8 MPH. So I eliminate the 3-4 MPH uphill travel times along with the 4 corner adjustments and in trade I still spend 15-20 seconds doing end corrections, but always move at 6+ MPH. That is fast and it saves eating the hydrostatic transaxles, it is a win/win with no downside on the Husqvarna (Craftsman branded) GT with high speed cutting ability.

I am not against adding some time, as I do admit to enjoying cutting grass! I cut at least once a week, I actually GPS recorded my cutting times and ground distance and I know that I travel 5.7 each time I cut and do it in 1 hour and 40 minutes. That does not include the additional hour of push mowing and weed eating. So adding a half hour is not a bad thing. But adding an hour or more will start making something I look forward to doing into more of a chore.

I have been working an excel spreadsheet as I collect data on various units. A new one that may come strong into play is the Kabota B2601 (wider and faster than the B2301) with its 3 range hydro unit. The LSXJ2025 was a very pleasing unit with a notably faster low range over the Mahindra Max26 XL. That slow low range took the MAX26 out of the running... even though prior to driving it I thought that it was a serious contender. We also asked the Mahindra dealer who is 8 miles away if he would bring a MAX26 to our place to test, he says no. He does not take machines to a potential customers property because he feels that you can test and get enough of a feel of the machine on his property. My problem is that his rolling hills are not a match to mine... so I fear making a $30,000 purchase and being upset that it was a bad choice. When I get really ready to make the move, I will absolutely be asking to have the prospective purchase brought to the property. I don't know what I will do if no one will allow this.

I am going to examine a KIOTI CK2510 soon as well, on paper that one has the most going for it... but it is a 2 range unit. I need to see if it is more like the Mahindra (slow) or more like the LS XJ2025 (fast).

So currently, the way I am ranking on my spread sheet I see them rank as follows:
#1 KIOTI CK2510 HST
#2 Kabota B2601 HST
#3 LS XJ2025 HST

 

[Olympus]

Having owned the LS J2023 which is essentially the exact same machine as the XJ model, I'll tell you from experience that the tractor feels tippy on slopes. It has a narrow width and I didn't like driving sideways on slopes whatsoever.

It looks like your yard is wide open without any obstacles. For that, I'd much prefer a wider more stable unit like the LS XG3025 and a rear finish mower.

The Kioti 2510 vs the XG2025 is not really a fair comparison. The Kioti is a larger framed machine than the LS.

But if this were my choice, I'd buy a good used zero turn mower like a Grasshopper, Scag, Deere, or Hustler and just blow through that grass in half the time you'll spend with a tractor and mid mount mower or finish mower. A zero turn will be ideal for mowing slopes. They are very wide and have very low centers of gravity and are meant for mowing on some pretty steep slopes. Tractors are not really meant for that.

Geez, I just saw your budget was $26k. For that kind of money, you can buy a brand new LS XG3025 ($14k) and a brand new commercial grade zero turn ($10-12k) and have the best of both worlds. A tractor for playing around on and working and a commercial grade zero turn to blow through your mowing in less time and that will last well over 1500 hours.

 

[Rock Crawler]

Sorry, I forgot to stick my updated spreadsheet in.

Green blocks are the most #1 ranked desirable trait to me in that category, yellow is the #2 ranked desirable trait. The yellow blocks should not be considered bad, they are just not weighted quite as heavily as the green. But looking at the bottom where I total greens and yellows on each unit, you see why the KIOTI is one that I really want to go see in person and test drive.

There are also intangible items from a spreadsheet perspective such as the Kubota having a fender mounted FEL joystick and tilt wheel for comfort. The KIOTI has a suspension seat with spring tension adjustment. Some things like these do have value yet are difficult to "chart" out. I could keep adding to the spreadsheet, but at some point the water starts getting muddy from data overload.

I am looking at low height, wide track width (hill stability), heavy weight, best digging/hydraulic performance, obviously low cost of entry, PTO HP.... so I am trying to look at the traits that make the machine better overall. Paint color is NOT a part of the decision.

 

[Olympus]

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges with the Kioti 2510 and LS XG2025. You're going to get a bunch of "green boxes" in the dimensions category because the two are not even close to comparable in size. So if you're just counting green boxes, that's not really the best way to compare. Especially when you're comparing machines of different frame size. The same with your hydro pump size. The Kioti has a larger hydro pump because it's a larger machine than the LS. And look at the loader capacity! The LS has more lift than the Kioti and it's even a smaller size tractor!

The LS model that is in the same frame class as your Kioti would be the XG3025. Now that would be a more apples to apples comparison. XG3025 has a 12.5gpm hydro pump which beats the Kioti. Lift capacity and breakout force blow the Kioti away also.

 

[Rock Crawler]

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges with the Kioti 2510 and LS XG2025. You're going to get a bunch of "green boxes" in the dimensions category because the two are not even close to comparable in size. So if you're just counting green boxes, that's not really the best way to compare. Especially when you're comparing machines of different frame size. The same with your hydro pump size. The Kioti has a larger hydro pump because it's a larger machine than the LS. And look at the loader capacity! The LS has more lift than the Kioti and it's even a smaller size tractor!

The LS model that is in the same frame class as your Kioti would be the XG3025. Now that would be a more apples to apples comparison. XG3025 has a 12.5gpm hydro pump which beats the Kioti. Lift capacity and breakout force blow the Kioti away also.

Where is the Kubota B2601 in that mix? Is it more comparable to the LS XJ2025, or would you move it up to be compared more in the KIOTI CK2510 area?

When you talk about size, I think LxWxH and the CK2510 only 6" longer, 4.3" wider, +0.8" wheel base and 10" overall shorter height than the LS XJ2025, so I would think that standing between the 2 units that they are visually very similar in size. There is a 628 weight difference... now that I agree is a HUGE change.

It's hard for a non tractor guy like myself to comprehend the defining line between one "size" and another when the physical sizes are so close.

If weight is the deciding factor, I guess that the Kubota B2601 is not equal to the KIOTI CK2510, but would be compared to the LS XJ2025?

 

[Olympus]

Yes, the Kubota B series and the LS J and XJ series are similar in size and would be a good apples to apples comparison. Think of them in terms of cars as a "unibody" whereas the Kioti would be a traditional "frame" body. The larger and beefier frame size is where you're getting the extra weight from with the Kioti.

I consider the Kubota B and LS J/XJ series to be kind of a "half step" between the SCUT and CUT class machines. They are slightly bigger than SCUTs, but not as big as a CUT class.

But again, if I owned your exact property with a budget of $26k and you want a backhoe, I'd buy a new LS XG3025 with a shuttle shift and backhoe and buy a dedicated zero turn mower.

Having first owned a hydro tranny tractor and now owning a true shuttle shift tranny, I will never go back to hydrostatic. Too much power robbing, too much whining, and too much need to keep the motor up in the revs to get that fluid moving fast. I can switch forward to reverse just as fast with my shuttle shift and it feels more like a tractor than a big lawn mower. Now if I was operating a tractor for a business every day, then you might see some productivity increase with a hydro tranny. But for the average home owner, I would say there's no noticeable difference between a shuttle and hydro tranny.