Ballast weight - how high can I go?

[kenlip]

And many threads of people with similar machines to my MX5100, saying 900-1000# (in the form of a close compact box) is enough. NO ITS NOT. I have a 1620# woods DS96 that has a COG a good 4' behind the lift eyes of the 3PH. It keeps me planted but more would sure be better for the front axle.

I have an MX5100HST, with a Challenge loader that I use with a bucket and with forks.

The tyres are loaded

I asked the guy at the dealership who sold me the tractor for advice about rear ballast. Here is his response ....

"Optimal counter weight for the MX5100HGD as calculated by Challenge is 300kgs. This takes into account the load capacity of the tractor and the loader combined.
You can get 3 point linkage counter weights to fill yourself, they weigh from 175kg to 1220kg depending on how and what (scrap metal, sand concert etc.) you put in there.
We aren稚 engineers and don稚 have access to any of the rating calculation. I have forwarded your request to Kubota, but I don稚 think you'll get the info as it would make possibly make them liable in case of an accident."

This raises a few interesting points.
1. 300kg (660#) is significantly less than 1,620#

2. There is no mention of the position of the COG of the 300kg. 300kg with the COG 1' behind the lift eyes is very different to having the COG 4' behind the eyes.

3. Accurate information is really difficult to get. The information is not in either the tractor or FEL manual. The dealer can't give proper information. They can't even tell me where the COG of the basic tractor is situated or the distribution of the weight over the front and rear wheels. And this is from a dealership that claims, on its website, to be a "5 star platinum Kubota Dealership".

4. The world has gone mad, where manufacturers and dealer aren't prepared to share information for fear of being sued.

All this information should be readily available on both the Kubota and Challenge websites. Instead, their websites are overflowing with marketing information and almost nothing to support the people who have actually bought their equipment.

Ken

P.S. He refers to MX5100HGD. I have no idea what HGD stands for and cannot find any reference for it.

 

[cat fever]

I did not read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating something already stated.

Here is an easy way to figure weight for the ballast and COG. For any given machine that can have a backhoe, find out the weight of the backhoe recommended for that machine. You should be safe with a counter weight being that heavy then look at where the COG would most likely be with that backhoe and make your ballast the same as best you can.

My personal opinion is, the counter weight most of us use is not heavy enough. Of coarse you don't want to exceed your limits of the 3 point by any means.

 

[WranglerX]

Here is my problem.... I have MF GC1715, with FEL lift capacity of 870 Pounds (by DL 95 manual IF reading it right)..... Had my JD L120 die on me on far end of property, (yeah runs like dear till it dies)... Anyway got RED tractor and went to back of property and scooped up front wheels and release hydrostatic drive on JD and curled bucket under front wheel of JD and drug it back to shop (in reverse), I realized after got back to shop the JD front bumper hooked under bucket lip of MF and I could actually lift the JD off ground!!!! ... All 532 pounds according to JD manual.... BUT... rear wheels lost traction and was so light it was skidding down slight incline (really slight but no brakes or power to wheels) and started to step off tractor (all 216 pounds of me) and it was mistake!!! Got back on real fast and anyway had to set JD down....

Now MF manual says ..

Tractor weight 1490 pound (plus unknow weight of FEL that is not listed in FEL manual)
Front axle 1940 pounds max capacity.
Rear axle 2094 pounds max capacity.
Maximum tractor mass 2690 pounds.

FEL manual FOR DL95 says tractor should have a 25% weight on rear wheels with bucket loaded (weight according to what is in bucket) ..

How do I calculate needed ballast???....... Biggest scale I have is 300 lb max bathroom and nearest large scale is 38 miles away and charges fees....

Curious to how to calculate and what appropriate ballast weight should be...

Dale

 

[kenlip]

I have thought long and hard about this and think I may have worked out what is going on with calculating the mass and position of the ballast. Both mass and distance are critical. We are effectively dealing with torquing forces.

As far as I can work out, the weight of the tractor is irrelevant. All you need is for the tractor to be large enough to handle the total of the weight on the front end and the weight of the counterweight. The only specs of the tractor we need are the distance from the COG of the load from the front axle, the wheel base and the distance from the rear axle to the COG of the counterweight.

I created a Word document illustrating my thinking. Unfortunately, I can't find a way to upload a PDF to TBN, so I have had to resort to a screengrab, which obviously is not as clear as a PDF would be.

All comments welcomed.

Ken

 

[LD1]

I have an MX5100HST, with a Challenge loader that I use with a bucket and with forks.

The tyres are loaded

I asked the guy at the dealership who sold me the tractor for advice about rear ballast. Here is his response ....

"Optimal counter weight for the MX5100HGD as calculated by Challenge is 300kgs. This takes into account the load capacity of the tractor and the loader combined.
You can get 3 point linkage counter weights to fill yourself, they weigh from 175kg to 1220kg depending on how and what (scrap metal, sand concert etc.) you put in there.
We aren稚 engineers and don稚 have access to any of the rating calculation. I have forwarded your request to Kubota, but I don稚 think you'll get the info as it would make possibly make them liable in case of an accident."

This raises a few interesting points.
1. 300kg (660#) is significantly less than 1,620#

2. There is no mention of the position of the COG of the 300kg. 300kg with the COG 1' behind the lift eyes is very different to having the COG 4' behind the eyes.

3. Accurate information is really difficult to get. The information is not in either the tractor or FEL manual. The dealer can't give proper information. They can't even tell me where the COG of the basic tractor is situated or the distribution of the weight over the front and rear wheels. And this is from a dealership that claims, on its website, to be a "5 star platinum Kubota Dealership".

4. The world has gone mad, where manufacturers and dealer aren't prepared to share information for fear of being sued.

All this information should be readily available on both the Kubota and Challenge websites. Instead, their websites are overflowing with marketing information and almost nothing to support the people who have actually bought their equipment.

Ken

P.S. He refers to MX5100HGD. I have no idea what HGD stands for and cannot find any reference for it.

Dont know about the challenge loader....dont know how its specs compare to the actual kubota loader....

But I can assure you with 100% certainty that 660# in the form of a ballast box....and loaded tires....is NOT enough to even keep the rear from lifting. Let alone keep enough weigh back there to do any good.

Why in the world they are suggesting something so light is beyond me. Its a cat II hitch on a 50HP tractor for crying out loud.

 

[kenlip]

Just a few minutes ago I got another email from the dealer. He said that it was a typo. Was supposed to be 800kg (1760#), not 300kg.

Ken

 

[Turbys_1700]

That sounds about right

 

[LD1]

Yea, thats much better numbers

 

[mike69440]

Dont know about the challenge loader....dont know how its specs compare to the actual kubota loader....

But I can assure you with 100% certainty that 660# in the form of a ballast box....and loaded tires....is NOT enough to even keep the rear from lifting. Let alone keep enough weigh back there to do any good.

Why in the world they are suggesting something so light is beyond me. Its a cat II hitch on a 50HP tractor for crying out loud.

Well 300 KG & loaded tires ought to keep rears on the ground with loader valve fully bypassing but it is not enough weight.

Lift off center or being eneven ground, 300 Kg is not enough.

At least 1500 Lbs sounds right.

 

[LD1]

Nope. A mere 600-700# in close in the form of a box....even with loaded tires....is not enough to keep the azz on the ground.