Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?

[plowhog]

Just fyi my recommended water conditioning media is also calcite. I believe I had the testing done (years ago) at the Clean Water Store. I think the testing was free?

 

[kenmac]

It has been mentioned, small particles / minerals, etc, moving through the pipes is like sand paper eating / wearing away the pipes. Time to replace.

IMO, Copper isn't as good now as it was when these were installed. I would suggest considering going with SS, or something along those lines for replacement

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I'm always a day late and a dollar short.

We did reduce treatment as Central Processing was complaining of spots on the instruments...

I fought it for a long time but was told to make the spots go away... cutting the treatment chemical and increasing blow downs did just that and started in January of this year... very possible the problem now is a result... with 3 of the 4 copper pipe pinhole leaks happening this year.

I have restored the treatment level and just waiting for the fallout should spotting occur... maybe the make a Calgon for boilers like dishwashers???

The pipes always looked a dull orange brown inside... now the pipe removed was very dark inside.

Can't thank you enough... really!

For your situation I do not believe a monthly water test is often enough. Your flow of incoming make up water creates a big variable on contaminates and PH. City water itself can run up and down the PH chart. What they deliver at the source can be different by the time it gets to you. There is equipment you can install, for an obvious non-full time manned plant, that will continually monitor water quality on several parameters including PH. It will provide an alarm when outside of parameters are encountered. Such equipment can also inject corrective solutions automatically. Somebody making periodic notes in a log book w/o actually performing the several tests needed at minimum daily is not full time manned. Are you even in compliance with CA Boiler Management Laws? Do you have a copy of that code? The most dangerous thing you have in your hospital is that boiler(s) especially in not monitored and tested per the Boiler Code, especially as it is a high pressure boiler and not a 15# max low pressure boiler. In some applications and make-up water quality the first requirement along with a low micron filter system is a water softener. Swings to positive PH can rapidly negate injected PH correction chemicals. What is the condition of the boiler internals? Is it inspected per Board/CA State Annually? What type boiler(s) is it? What is the BTU output of the system? These questions are a sample of what a forensic evaluation will answer. That evaluation then becomes the basis for your maintenance budget and repair/replacement planning and budgeting.

Sometimes upper level management needs a wake up call on what the real costs are in owning and maintaining vital facility systems. Deferred or reduced scope maintenance can really come around to bite them in the A** down the road. Replacement costs twice as much or more than a new plant costs.

This is the kind of stuff I did years ago as a Facility Manager, Facility Maintenance Planner, and Facility Project Planner for the US Navy Shore Establishment. My Steamfitter background was valuable in this arena. As an OR Class 5 Boiler Technician License holder; we also had to be familiar with it and tested on it to get the license. I thing OR is still the only state having such a program. It is the same level license as a plumber or electrician has to have.

Ron

 

[newbury]

<snip>
Sometimes upper level management needs a wake up call on what the real costs are in owning and maintaining vital facility systems. Deferred or reduced scope maintenance can really come around to bite them in the A** down the road. Replacement costs twice as much or more than a new plant costs.
<snip>

Why should upper level management care about replacement costs? They will be gone by then.

 

[kenmac]

Why should upper level management care about replacement costs? They will be gone by then.

upper management only cares about the bottom line.
Like always, They will take the cheapest way out.

 

[dfkrug]

There is equipment you can install, for an obvious non-full time manned plant, that will continually monitor water quality on several parameters including PH. It will provide an alarm when outside of parameters are encountered. Such equipment can also inject corrective solutions automatically.

Indeed there is, Ron. DI (de-ionized) water plants are installed in industrial settings where pure water is needed. Adding high temps only exacerbates the corrosive nature of impure water. Acidic water will eventually erode even the thickest copper pipes. I do not know if a DI water system is over-kill for Curt's hospital, but constant monitoring and automated pH control is a good suggestion.

 

[ultrarunner]

The 3/4 and 1-1/2 pipe have pin holes that my ball point pen opened nicely...

The 3/4 is black inside and looks like it is delaminating... don't know how else to describe it.

Will try to get a pictures...

When this surgical unit was built... it was to have a full size Cleaver Brooks Boiler.

At the last minute, management said no one will be here 24/7 so one large Cleaver Brooks was changed to 9.9 hp Ajax California Specials... in some ways it is nice having back up... as in having several boilers to draw from.

The changed was made at the highest levels to reduce cost... and being California Specials they are not subject to the regulatory requirements of larger boilers.

As too management... no one is here from the 94-95 design and build except me... and ALL upper management is gone since being acquired last year...

 

[Tractor Seabee]

upper management only cares about the bottom line.
Like always, They will take the cheapest way out.

Unfortunately breakdown maintenance on boiler equipment/steam systems can result in personnel injuries up to fatal. Lack of maintenance/repairs could be the basis for a management chain felony charges as well as a huge liability claim. Forgetting about facility causalities; how many $s are human lives worth? Facility managers and their supervision chain need to see and read some of the boiler causality case histories we used to see through our continuing education requirements. What a GAMBLE!! Even a simple water heater with a faulty relief valve can destroy structure as well as humans in its path. I have seen pictures of them going through two stories and out the roof. The OP is dealing with a 65# steam system. Danger Flags are up and waving.

Ron

 

[ultrarunner]

Yep... and it would pretty much me paying the price... the boilers are in a separate concrete bunker not part of the building.

I remember seeing WWII films of steam locomotives being strafed and ka-boom... not much left if the boiler let go.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

The 3/4 and 1-1/2 pipe have pin holes that my ball point pen opened nicely...

The 3/4 is black inside and looks like it is delaminating... don't know how else to describe it.

Will try to get a pictures...

When this surgical unit was built... it was to have a full size Cleaver Brooks Boiler.

At the last minute, management said no one will be here 24/7 so one large Cleaver Brooks was changed to 9.9 hp Ajax California Specials... in some ways it is nice having back up... as in having several boilers to draw from.

The changed was made at the highest levels to reduce cost... and being California Specials they are not subject to the regulatory requirements of larger boilers.

As too management... no one is here from the 94-95 design and build except me... and ALL upper management is gone since being acquired last year...

I am not familiar with Ajax. Brand and type of boiler is probably not relevant to your problem, size could lend something to the problem. Personally I favor CB. Standard life cycle of a steam boiler is 30 years. Time for you to start putting replacement into your budget. New style boilers are considerably more efficient. Replacement could have a payback that can accelerate that decision making. Steam distribution is a different story. You have a choice of continuing to patch till it ultimately fails grossly and stops sterilization operations till replaced or replace on a managed basis. That can be done with minimum down time a section at a time. First step is fix the situation causing the problem in the first place. No sense exposing new piping to a damaging climate. You may want to check this web site: When to Replace a Steam Boiler – Three Considerations | Lathrop Trotter | Lathrop Trotter

Are you ready to wrestle the tiger down or just continue to tweak its tail? I was a facility manager for the Navy for years and wrote many project justifications and fought the budget battles. Luckily Naval officers understand he results of breakdown management. Money managers should understand a life cycle analysis. Some times you have to go over their heads to maintain your own personal integrity. You could be setting before a judge along with them. As a contract consultant I wrote these things for clients at $100/hr. I was cheap as I was not a Professional engineer just a lot of technical xperience. They probably charge $200-400/hr.

Am I trying to scare you? YES, the life you save may be your own.

Ron