Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?

   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #21  
Just fyi my recommended water conditioning media is also calcite. I believe I had the testing done (years ago) at the Clean Water Store. I think the testing was free?
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #22  
It has been mentioned, small particles / minerals, etc, moving through the pipes is like sand paper eating / wearing away the pipes. Time to replace.

IMO, Copper isn't as good now as it was when these were installed. I would suggest considering going with SS, or something along those lines for replacement
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #23  
I'm always a day late and a dollar short.

We did reduce treatment as Central Processing was complaining of spots on the instruments...

I fought it for a long time but was told to make the spots go away... cutting the treatment chemical and increasing blow downs did just that and started in January of this year... very possible the problem now is a result... with 3 of the 4 copper pipe pinhole leaks happening this year.

I have restored the treatment level and just waiting for the fallout should spotting occur... maybe the make a Calgon for boilers like dishwashers???

The pipes always looked a dull orange brown inside... now the pipe removed was very dark inside.

Can't thank you enough... really!

For your situation I do not believe a monthly water test is often enough. Your flow of incoming make up water creates a big variable on contaminates and PH. City water itself can run up and down the PH chart. What they deliver at the source can be different by the time it gets to you. There is equipment you can install, for an obvious non-full time manned plant, that will continually monitor water quality on several parameters including PH. It will provide an alarm when outside of parameters are encountered. Such equipment can also inject corrective solutions automatically. Somebody making periodic notes in a log book w/o actually performing the several tests needed at minimum daily is not full time manned. Are you even in compliance with CA Boiler Management Laws? Do you have a copy of that code? The most dangerous thing you have in your hospital is that boiler(s) especially in not monitored and tested per the Boiler Code, especially as it is a high pressure boiler and not a 15# max low pressure boiler. In some applications and make-up water quality the first requirement along with a low micron filter system is a water softener. Swings to positive PH can rapidly negate injected PH correction chemicals. What is the condition of the boiler internals? Is it inspected per Board/CA State Annually? What type boiler(s) is it? What is the BTU output of the system? These questions are a sample of what a forensic evaluation will answer. That evaluation then becomes the basis for your maintenance budget and repair/replacement planning and budgeting.

Sometimes upper level management needs a wake up call on what the real costs are in owning and maintaining vital facility systems. Deferred or reduced scope maintenance can really come around to bite them in the A** down the road. Replacement costs twice as much or more than a new plant costs.

This is the kind of stuff I did years ago as a Facility Manager, Facility Maintenance Planner, and Facility Project Planner for the US Navy Shore Establishment. My Steamfitter background was valuable in this arena. As an OR Class 5 Boiler Technician License holder; we also had to be familiar with it and tested on it to get the license. I thing OR is still the only state having such a program. It is the same level license as a plumber or electrician has to have.

Ron
 
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   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #24  
<snip>
Sometimes upper level management needs a wake up call on what the real costs are in owning and maintaining vital facility systems. Deferred or reduced scope maintenance can really come around to bite them in the A** down the road. Replacement costs twice as much or more than a new plant costs.
<snip>
Why should upper level management care about replacement costs? They will be gone by then.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #25  
Why should upper level management care about replacement costs? They will be gone by then.

upper management only cares about the bottom line.
Like always, They will take the cheapest way out.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #26  
There is equipment you can install, for an obvious non-full time manned plant, that will continually monitor water quality on several parameters including PH. It will provide an alarm when outside of parameters are encountered. Such equipment can also inject corrective solutions automatically.

Indeed there is, Ron. DI (de-ionized) water plants are installed in industrial settings where pure water is needed. Adding high temps only exacerbates the corrosive nature of impure water. Acidic water will eventually erode even the thickest copper pipes. I do not know if a DI water system is over-kill for Curt's hospital, but constant monitoring and automated pH control is a good suggestion.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#27  
The 3/4 and 1-1/2 pipe have pin holes that my ball point pen opened nicely...

The 3/4 is black inside and looks like it is delaminating... don't know how else to describe it.

Will try to get a pictures...

When this surgical unit was built... it was to have a full size Cleaver Brooks Boiler.

At the last minute, management said no one will be here 24/7 so one large Cleaver Brooks was changed to 9.9 hp Ajax California Specials... in some ways it is nice having back up... as in having several boilers to draw from.

The changed was made at the highest levels to reduce cost... and being California Specials they are not subject to the regulatory requirements of larger boilers.

As too management... no one is here from the 94-95 design and build except me... and ALL upper management is gone since being acquired last year...
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #28  
upper management only cares about the bottom line.
Like always, They will take the cheapest way out.

Unfortunately breakdown maintenance on boiler equipment/steam systems can result in personnel injuries up to fatal. Lack of maintenance/repairs could be the basis for a management chain felony charges as well as a huge liability claim. Forgetting about facility causalities; how many $s are human lives worth? Facility managers and their supervision chain need to see and read some of the boiler causality case histories we used to see through our continuing education requirements. What a GAMBLE!! Even a simple water heater with a faulty relief valve can destroy structure as well as humans in its path. I have seen pictures of them going through two stories and out the roof. The OP is dealing with a 65# steam system. Danger Flags are up and waving.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#29  
Yep... and it would pretty much me paying the price... the boilers are in a separate concrete bunker not part of the building.

I remember seeing WWII films of steam locomotives being strafed and ka-boom... not much left if the boiler let go.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #30  
The 3/4 and 1-1/2 pipe have pin holes that my ball point pen opened nicely...

The 3/4 is black inside and looks like it is delaminating... don't know how else to describe it.

Will try to get a pictures...

When this surgical unit was built... it was to have a full size Cleaver Brooks Boiler.

At the last minute, management said no one will be here 24/7 so one large Cleaver Brooks was changed to 9.9 hp Ajax California Specials... in some ways it is nice having back up... as in having several boilers to draw from.

The changed was made at the highest levels to reduce cost... and being California Specials they are not subject to the regulatory requirements of larger boilers.

As too management... no one is here from the 94-95 design and build except me... and ALL upper management is gone since being acquired last year...

I am not familiar with Ajax. Brand and type of boiler is probably not relevant to your problem, size could lend something to the problem. Personally I favor CB. Standard life cycle of a steam boiler is 30 years. Time for you to start putting replacement into your budget. New style boilers are considerably more efficient. Replacement could have a payback that can accelerate that decision making. Steam distribution is a different story. You have a choice of continuing to patch till it ultimately fails grossly and stops sterilization operations till replaced or replace on a managed basis. That can be done with minimum down time a section at a time. First step is fix the situation causing the problem in the first place. No sense exposing new piping to a damaging climate. You may want to check this web site: When to Replace a Steam Boiler – Three Considerations | Lathrop Trotter | Lathrop Trotter

Are you ready to wrestle the tiger down or just continue to tweak its tail? I was a facility manager for the Navy for years and wrote many project justifications and fought the budget battles. Luckily Naval officers understand he results of breakdown management. Money managers should understand a life cycle analysis. Some times you have to go over their heads to maintain your own personal integrity. You could be setting before a judge along with them. As a contract consultant I wrote these things for clients at $100/hr. I was cheap as I was not a Professional engineer just a lot of technical xperience. They probably charge $200-400/hr.

Am I trying to scare you? YES, the life you save may be your own.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #31  
Indeed there is, Ron. DI (de-ionized) water plants are installed in industrial settings where pure water is needed. Adding high temps only exacerbates the corrosive nature of impure water. Acidic water will eventually erode even the thickest copper pipes. I do not know if a DI water system is over-kill for Curt's hospital, but constant monitoring and automated pH control is a good suggestion.

The pharmaceutical, nuclear power industry, and naval ships have a requirement for DI water (<5 umohs electrical resistance). PH control is still a requirement on boiler feed water applications; piping is all SS as DI water leaches out particles from any other metal. All boilers work better and last longer using de-mineralized feed water (<35 umohs). Water treatment is still required. It is expensive both first cost and maintenance of the resin beds. When I worked for the Navy I designed and contracted for a portable feed water purification system for naval ships boiler shore water; learned a lot on that project.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #32  
Curt, you mentioned in one of your posts that you inspect the boilers annually even though not state required. What does your causality insurance company say about all this. They usually have requirements that exceed local jurisdictions requirements. They are not interested in paying a claim no water what it costs you to keep them out of it. Remember, local codes are minimum requirements not absolutes. Sound judgement based on plant experience may cause you to modify those requirements also. Example is the high volume of make up water changes the dynamics a lot. You are probably close to 100% make up. Whole new ball game that takes a lot of attention to the water quality. Those spots doctors were worried about are precipitated chemicals.

I trust I am helping you; I am not trying to cause anguish just for drill or thrill. These situations always bother me to the core even into retirement after over 60 years of battling these real life situations.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #33  
I had to sweat in new pipe to repair two pin hole leaks last month. My house is 30 years old.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #34  
If you're running 60psi steam for sanitization then it should be run in stainless welded sanitary tubing. We install high purity steam and process piping systems for biotech and pharmaceutical companies and sanitization steam is always in stainless. Even airhandler humidification steam is run in stainless.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Curt, you mentioned in one of your posts that you inspect the boilers annually even though not state required. What does your causality insurance company say about all this. They usually have requirements that exceed local jurisdictions requirements. They are not interested in paying a claim no water what it costs you to keep them out of it. Remember, local codes are minimum requirements not absolutes. Sound judgement based on plant experience may cause you to modify those requirements also. Example is the high volume of make up water changes the dynamics a lot. You are probably close to 100% make up. Whole new ball game that takes a lot of attention to the water quality. Those spots doctors were worried about are precipitated chemicals.

I trust I am helping you; I am not trying to cause anguish just for drill or thrill. These situations always bother me to the core even into retirement after over 60 years of battling these real life situations.

Ron

In 23 years the insurance underwriter came out once to inspect boilers... noted the "California Special" and said we don't look at these.

However... I have a 60 gallon air compressor with dryer in the mechanical mezzanine that cycles between 40 and 60 psi and the State and Insurance Company come out and verify operation, use an instrument to measure wall thickness, etc...

The State collects a Permit Fee so we can operate it and when I bought it, I had to pay extra for the ASTM certification and documentation...

The spots are pale white "Water" spots... they increase with the level of boiler make up water treatment and decrease when less treatment is used.

The first 7 or 8 years the annual came back excellent... the inspection report said keep doing what you are doing... the boiler company is not involved with water chemistry.

We had a very good Chemical guy... he was independent and really a one man business... when he passed away the chemical provider stepped up...

Water supply varies.... water is sourced from sources that have not been used in decades during the droughts... also, municipal water is now treated differently now... Chloramine which destroys rubber... had no end of problems in the rentals when Chloramine was introduced... especially toilet parts... all of the Sloan Flush Valve metering diaphragms disintegrated... now they are made of a compound that is Chloramine resistant.
 
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   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#36  
If you're running 60psi steam for sanitization then it should be run in stainless welded sanitary tubing. We install high purity steam and process piping systems for biotech and pharmaceutical companies and sanitization steam is always in stainless. Even airhandler humidification steam is run in stainless.

Air Handler Steam is seldom used but uses steam generating canisters that have purge and end of life...

The location has near perfect humidity so we are fortunate in this regard... Humidity is checked and logged in the Operating Rooms twice a day...
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #37  
All great questions...

Boilers are 23 years old... one was re-tubed last year... others are original and opened/inspected annually.

Lots of make up water as all steam produced is consumed.

Water chemistry is tested monthly and treatment adjusted as needed.

Our water is very good for our region... in the valley the water causes problems all around for our sister hospitals...

In addition to the sterilizer steam feed line steam traps... each sterilizer has a manufacturers "Steam Conditioner" filter fitted with another small steam trap that runs to the floor drain under each machine... it sounds like a toilet flush when the machines are on standby... about every 8 to 10 minutes.

23 years is like new. The plant I operate has four boilers all over 50 years old, one was re-tubed about 8 years ago. We test makeup water hardness and Ph, blowdown water from each operating steam boiler is tested for alkalinity, sulfite, and conductivity. All tests are taken twice a day! Make-up water treatment is very important, we use 30,000 gal. in the summer and about 50,000 in the winter. The VA complex has about 10 miles each of steam, condensate, and chilled water piping. The hospital had an issue with sterilizers recently with spotting...they blamed the steam quality as the culprit, but learned that the new trays used in the units were the cause.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#38  
We do have a lot of new trays... good point.

Only thing is when treatment was reduced so was the spotting.

Three years ago we were to close for good... site was to become a shopping mall... seriously.

Then we get picked up by a Health Care Giant and have new ways of doing business to learn...

Only constant is change.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #39  
Curt, I have been racking my old brain on stuff 40-50 years past. I finally remembered an incident that indicates that steel pipe is not a panacea either in your case. I was the service tech initially dispatched to the call. Exactly the same application that you have. It was a hospital that had a dedicated 80 PSI boiler and steam system for a lot of sterilizers. One huge one in their central supply department. 100% steam wasted. System was 20 years old and started leaking at threaded joints and welded fittings. Pin holes like yours. Piping was 100% schedule 80 with forged fittings and steel valves (no brass, bronze, or copper in the system except 1.5" makeup water line, steam pipe from 3" to 1/2".

We installed all new piping long side the existing with valves for each branch. Cut over worked smooth and event-less on graveyard shifts when no surgery occurred. I racked up a lot of double time plus my daily service work. We then dismantled the old piping. Many places the piping was the thickness of Schedule 5 and pitted all over. Some elbows were paper thin where velocity had really worked its magic. Disaster waiting to happen. Had some piping samples and condensate samples tested. Piping had a lot of carbon residue and water PH was -3 and loaded with carbonic acid and carbon dioxide.

We had the plant engineer (he was new, only one month) go back on records. The boiler had been re-tubed twice due to pin holing. Conclusion was that the production of steam pulled the carbon dioxide from the makeup water (city water) and created carbonic acid that attacked the piping and boiler. Shut down and inspected the boiler steam side. Pitted throughout, and tubes 5 years old already showing the effects. Next step was reviewing the water treatment: They had a junior engineer that daily checked the chemical auto feeder level and add chemicals, when needed, with chemicals prescribed by a water treatment supplier. No body ever checked the chemistry of the wasted condensate as it was going down the drain (wonder what the sewer system looks like?). Make up water was a considered a fixed entity so no tests were made there either . Makeup water was not heated and went directly to the feed pump; good way to shorten the boiler life with thermal shock.

The new engineer seemed to have good grasp of what we found and went to management with our written report. Due to the critical nature of the system the board of directors contracted my firm to engineer a new system and re-tube the boiler again. At that point I lost contact with with the project. I heard later from fellow workers that they added a DA system to remove dissolved air and other gasses from the water, a heater system using boiler steam to bring makeup water to 212 F before introducing to the DA system, a water softner for make up water, and a whole new chemical feeder system monitored and calibration checks each shift (wonder how long that lasted?).

This experience from the past may be helpful. I think I have exhausted my knowledge base on your problem.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#40  
Appreciate you taking the time to answer in such detail.

Make up water is pre heated so no cold water going in...

The boiler retube was not a pin hole... it was the lowest tube right in the flame... more like a crack or fissure.

When I was salaried... I was here 7 days a week... ALWAYS came in Sunday night to check boilers and pumps...

Since being hourly... Sunday is prohibited... so no one checks but me and I no longer am allowed to come in "On My Own"

When we were a stand alone community facility... the emphasis was on value for money spent... do it once and do it right... the copper pipe was seen as an upgrade based on water and usage at the time.

Now that we are part of the big Health Care System... things have changed a lot... but in all fairness... I am here less and my checks are bigger because I am paid for the time I am here.

Emergency Repairs go right through... any "Capital" expenditure can take forever...

I have a 23 year old Carrier Package Unit AC in the back Admin Office Space which is down from 14 people to 1... rest is for storage... the condenser and compressor are bad... Last November I wrote up my recommendation to replace... bid with crane and all... just under 8K... still not approved... about every 3 months I have to contact the vendor asking if the numbers are still good... now we are up about 20% cost wise.

The thing is I could have had the compressor and coil replaced and new refrigerant etc... done as a repair and pushed it through... but not in good conscience...
 

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