Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?

   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #31  
Indeed there is, Ron. DI (de-ionized) water plants are installed in industrial settings where pure water is needed. Adding high temps only exacerbates the corrosive nature of impure water. Acidic water will eventually erode even the thickest copper pipes. I do not know if a DI water system is over-kill for Curt's hospital, but constant monitoring and automated pH control is a good suggestion.

The pharmaceutical, nuclear power industry, and naval ships have a requirement for DI water (<5 umohs electrical resistance). PH control is still a requirement on boiler feed water applications; piping is all SS as DI water leaches out particles from any other metal. All boilers work better and last longer using de-mineralized feed water (<35 umohs). Water treatment is still required. It is expensive both first cost and maintenance of the resin beds. When I worked for the Navy I designed and contracted for a portable feed water purification system for naval ships boiler shore water; learned a lot on that project.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #32  
Curt, you mentioned in one of your posts that you inspect the boilers annually even though not state required. What does your causality insurance company say about all this. They usually have requirements that exceed local jurisdictions requirements. They are not interested in paying a claim no water what it costs you to keep them out of it. Remember, local codes are minimum requirements not absolutes. Sound judgement based on plant experience may cause you to modify those requirements also. Example is the high volume of make up water changes the dynamics a lot. You are probably close to 100% make up. Whole new ball game that takes a lot of attention to the water quality. Those spots doctors were worried about are precipitated chemicals.

I trust I am helping you; I am not trying to cause anguish just for drill or thrill. These situations always bother me to the core even into retirement after over 60 years of battling these real life situations.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #33  
I had to sweat in new pipe to repair two pin hole leaks last month. My house is 30 years old.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #34  
If you're running 60psi steam for sanitization then it should be run in stainless welded sanitary tubing. We install high purity steam and process piping systems for biotech and pharmaceutical companies and sanitization steam is always in stainless. Even airhandler humidification steam is run in stainless.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Curt, you mentioned in one of your posts that you inspect the boilers annually even though not state required. What does your causality insurance company say about all this. They usually have requirements that exceed local jurisdictions requirements. They are not interested in paying a claim no water what it costs you to keep them out of it. Remember, local codes are minimum requirements not absolutes. Sound judgement based on plant experience may cause you to modify those requirements also. Example is the high volume of make up water changes the dynamics a lot. You are probably close to 100% make up. Whole new ball game that takes a lot of attention to the water quality. Those spots doctors were worried about are precipitated chemicals.

I trust I am helping you; I am not trying to cause anguish just for drill or thrill. These situations always bother me to the core even into retirement after over 60 years of battling these real life situations.

Ron

In 23 years the insurance underwriter came out once to inspect boilers... noted the "California Special" and said we don't look at these.

However... I have a 60 gallon air compressor with dryer in the mechanical mezzanine that cycles between 40 and 60 psi and the State and Insurance Company come out and verify operation, use an instrument to measure wall thickness, etc...

The State collects a Permit Fee so we can operate it and when I bought it, I had to pay extra for the ASTM certification and documentation...

The spots are pale white "Water" spots... they increase with the level of boiler make up water treatment and decrease when less treatment is used.

The first 7 or 8 years the annual came back excellent... the inspection report said keep doing what you are doing... the boiler company is not involved with water chemistry.

We had a very good Chemical guy... he was independent and really a one man business... when he passed away the chemical provider stepped up...

Water supply varies.... water is sourced from sources that have not been used in decades during the droughts... also, municipal water is now treated differently now... Chloramine which destroys rubber... had no end of problems in the rentals when Chloramine was introduced... especially toilet parts... all of the Sloan Flush Valve metering diaphragms disintegrated... now they are made of a compound that is Chloramine resistant.
 
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   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#36  
If you're running 60psi steam for sanitization then it should be run in stainless welded sanitary tubing. We install high purity steam and process piping systems for biotech and pharmaceutical companies and sanitization steam is always in stainless. Even airhandler humidification steam is run in stainless.

Air Handler Steam is seldom used but uses steam generating canisters that have purge and end of life...

The location has near perfect humidity so we are fortunate in this regard... Humidity is checked and logged in the Operating Rooms twice a day...
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #37  
All great questions...

Boilers are 23 years old... one was re-tubed last year... others are original and opened/inspected annually.

Lots of make up water as all steam produced is consumed.

Water chemistry is tested monthly and treatment adjusted as needed.

Our water is very good for our region... in the valley the water causes problems all around for our sister hospitals...

In addition to the sterilizer steam feed line steam traps... each sterilizer has a manufacturers "Steam Conditioner" filter fitted with another small steam trap that runs to the floor drain under each machine... it sounds like a toilet flush when the machines are on standby... about every 8 to 10 minutes.

23 years is like new. The plant I operate has four boilers all over 50 years old, one was re-tubed about 8 years ago. We test makeup water hardness and Ph, blowdown water from each operating steam boiler is tested for alkalinity, sulfite, and conductivity. All tests are taken twice a day! Make-up water treatment is very important, we use 30,000 gal. in the summer and about 50,000 in the winter. The VA complex has about 10 miles each of steam, condensate, and chilled water piping. The hospital had an issue with sterilizers recently with spotting...they blamed the steam quality as the culprit, but learned that the new trays used in the units were the cause.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#38  
We do have a lot of new trays... good point.

Only thing is when treatment was reduced so was the spotting.

Three years ago we were to close for good... site was to become a shopping mall... seriously.

Then we get picked up by a Health Care Giant and have new ways of doing business to learn...

Only constant is change.
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years? #39  
Curt, I have been racking my old brain on stuff 40-50 years past. I finally remembered an incident that indicates that steel pipe is not a panacea either in your case. I was the service tech initially dispatched to the call. Exactly the same application that you have. It was a hospital that had a dedicated 80 PSI boiler and steam system for a lot of sterilizers. One huge one in their central supply department. 100% steam wasted. System was 20 years old and started leaking at threaded joints and welded fittings. Pin holes like yours. Piping was 100% schedule 80 with forged fittings and steel valves (no brass, bronze, or copper in the system except 1.5" makeup water line, steam pipe from 3" to 1/2".

We installed all new piping long side the existing with valves for each branch. Cut over worked smooth and event-less on graveyard shifts when no surgery occurred. I racked up a lot of double time plus my daily service work. We then dismantled the old piping. Many places the piping was the thickness of Schedule 5 and pitted all over. Some elbows were paper thin where velocity had really worked its magic. Disaster waiting to happen. Had some piping samples and condensate samples tested. Piping had a lot of carbon residue and water PH was -3 and loaded with carbonic acid and carbon dioxide.

We had the plant engineer (he was new, only one month) go back on records. The boiler had been re-tubed twice due to pin holing. Conclusion was that the production of steam pulled the carbon dioxide from the makeup water (city water) and created carbonic acid that attacked the piping and boiler. Shut down and inspected the boiler steam side. Pitted throughout, and tubes 5 years old already showing the effects. Next step was reviewing the water treatment: They had a junior engineer that daily checked the chemical auto feeder level and add chemicals, when needed, with chemicals prescribed by a water treatment supplier. No body ever checked the chemistry of the wasted condensate as it was going down the drain (wonder what the sewer system looks like?). Make up water was a considered a fixed entity so no tests were made there either . Makeup water was not heated and went directly to the feed pump; good way to shorten the boiler life with thermal shock.

The new engineer seemed to have good grasp of what we found and went to management with our written report. Due to the critical nature of the system the board of directors contracted my firm to engineer a new system and re-tube the boiler again. At that point I lost contact with with the project. I heard later from fellow workers that they added a DA system to remove dissolved air and other gasses from the water, a heater system using boiler steam to bring makeup water to 212 F before introducing to the DA system, a water softner for make up water, and a whole new chemical feeder system monitored and calibration checks each shift (wonder how long that lasted?).

This experience from the past may be helpful. I think I have exhausted my knowledge base on your problem.

Ron
 
   / Copper L pipe going bad after 20 years?
  • Thread Starter
#40  
Appreciate you taking the time to answer in such detail.

Make up water is pre heated so no cold water going in...

The boiler retube was not a pin hole... it was the lowest tube right in the flame... more like a crack or fissure.

When I was salaried... I was here 7 days a week... ALWAYS came in Sunday night to check boilers and pumps...

Since being hourly... Sunday is prohibited... so no one checks but me and I no longer am allowed to come in "On My Own"

When we were a stand alone community facility... the emphasis was on value for money spent... do it once and do it right... the copper pipe was seen as an upgrade based on water and usage at the time.

Now that we are part of the big Health Care System... things have changed a lot... but in all fairness... I am here less and my checks are bigger because I am paid for the time I am here.

Emergency Repairs go right through... any "Capital" expenditure can take forever...

I have a 23 year old Carrier Package Unit AC in the back Admin Office Space which is down from 14 people to 1... rest is for storage... the condenser and compressor are bad... Last November I wrote up my recommendation to replace... bid with crane and all... just under 8K... still not approved... about every 3 months I have to contact the vendor asking if the numbers are still good... now we are up about 20% cost wise.

The thing is I could have had the compressor and coil replaced and new refrigerant etc... done as a repair and pushed it through... but not in good conscience...
 

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