Planning on dropping Health Insurance. Change my mind.

[bruceha2000]

Why the rush to pay off the home loan? It痴 probably your largest tax write off.

Not any more. Not with a standard deduction for single people moved up to $12K with the tax law that was passed last year.

 

[D2Cat]

BrokeFarmerJohn, I have to commend you on selling the bull. You had no use for him if you only had steers!

 

[Streetcar]

Why get unsecured loan or borrow against 401 ,if you refinance your house or get equity loan

 

[thekkfan]

We don't need health insurance for everyone.

What we NEED is healthcare costs regulations. You should be able to go to the doctor, get a normal bill like you do for anything else, and be able to simply pay it. Same for medications.

It's funny learning at my previous career how the gov't regulates phone, cable, utilities rate increases, but does nothing where the fatcat money lies.... gas, oil, healthcare.

 

[ultrarunner]

The funny thing is Hospitals are closing all around the country... must not be all that lucrative a business.

What other business is regulated to provide care to all without regard to payment?

Some would argue regulation is very much a part of the problem...

 

[thekkfan]

None around here. Must be the overpopulating in your area of the country and cannot financially sustain the influx..?

Dunno. :confused3:

 

[Oaktree]

The funny thing is Hospitals are closing all around the country... must not be all that lucrative a business.

What other business is regulated to provide care to all without regard to payment?

Some would argue regulation is very much a part of the problem...

Good points.
As a healthcare industry insider, what thoughts do you have regarding improving care while keeping prices under control? Other countries seem to manage it.

I don't like excessive regulation either, but some industries seem to bring it upon themselves.

We don't need health insurance for everyone.

What we NEED is healthcare costs regulations. You should be able to go to the doctor, get a normal bill like you do for anything else, and be able to simply pay it. Same for medications..

At the very least, we need some transparency regarding pricing. Why can't a hospital bill (or to a lesser extent, a doctor's visit) be all-inclusive instead of getting a bill from the hospital, plus another one from the doctor, another for the anesthesiologist, still another for the pathology lab and all sorts of really vague items on the bill that even the billing dept. can't explain? I get that some of these specialists are independent contractors, but why can't the hospital pay them and include all costs in one bill?

A little bit of open-ness regarding fees would be nice too so you have an idea what to expect going in, maybe tests, procedures, add-ons that could be eliminated up front to keep costs low. Every other industry seems to be able to do this.

As far as medication goes, same thing. There is no excuse for a given drug to have a several hundred % range in price from one pharmacy to another for the exact same drug.

We need some accountability here, and that's sorely lacking. Hospitals and pharmacies seem to be able to charge whatever they want and their attitude is take it or leave it.

From what I can see Obamacare® did very little to address any of these issues, just added more bureaucracy to the mix.

 

[ultrarunner]

I believe pro-active patients would help a lot.

Many only care what their portion is if any... some will almost brag saying my last hospital stay was 80k and I only had to pay $250 or some small amount.

There is a total disconnect between the consumer and cost. I know of no other purchase where so many are uninterested in cost... of course there are those that do the leg work... they contact all parties prior as they want pricing in writing and not afraid to shop or bargain for elective procedures...

Also... and this is a pet peeve of mine is the "Price" varies greatly... contract or no contract, in network, emergency etc... price requested prior to service vs we will find out when the bills start arriving.

My brother did all the right things for his surgery... at the last minute the anesthesiologist in net work was not available... as in 20 minutes prior but another was substituted... out of network... when it was all said and done... my brother was expected to pay $3100 for out of network and none of this was disclosed... his Doc was called away on a emergency... medical ambush is what I call it.

Brother refused... then the collection calls started coming... each collection letter and call was returned to the Doctors residence... amazing what happens when no one gets back to you and the customer is ringing your door bell....

Surgery typically will have a minimum of 3 components to the bill... facility, anesthesia and surgeon... there are cases facilities simply no longer do because reimbursements do not cover the cost... especially if additional supplies are needed.

Some facilities will work with patients and high volume docs... say 4 cases with one being Medi-Cal in the mix... this way the average tend to work out better.

An informed consumer is the first defense... as is managing expectations.

I have quite a few Doctor and Nurse friends in Austria... Austria is known for having excellent medical training and quite pro active when it comes to the young, expectant mothers and those with a long productive work life ahead...

My Vienna Docs said procedures routine in America for elderly simply are not going to happen in the State system... transplants, cancer routines with very expensive drugs... etc...

Also, Docs there do not worry about lawyers... and employees all have basic coverage...

But... just because it works well for most... there are those that can afford it go elsewhere to have treatment they are not eligible for in Austria... in full disclosure... the gap is narrowing... but was quite extreme even 20 or more years ago.

In my region... a not for profit hospital corp GAVE away a modern, seismic Hospital to the county... and it was not because of utilization because the census was high... it was because such a large percentage of patients had no insurance or were under insured...

Now the county has it and keeps asking for more funding to cover patients not insured.

We also had a stellar Catholic Hospital that service a real need for a variety of things... the Nuns said they could not and would not be a part of mandated "Family" planning... they pulled out and left...

This hospital is struggling but because the need is great... other Hospitals or competitors have stepped up with Million Dollar grants lest these patients show up on their doorstep...

 

[bruceha2000]

...
I told myself I would not end up in his situation so I watched my finances like a hawk. The retirement and investing game, I don’t know anything about, haven’t had the money for it yet.

The 401k loan, I knew had to be paid off if I ever left my job or would have to pay a early withdraw free etc. wasn’t as keen on the not making as much money as the loan is open. I just figured the loss would be less with that loan vs a higher interest loan.

I highly commend you for getting your financial house in order especially since you didn't have a good role model to teach you. BTW, divorce is the worst financial plan ever, that is why your dad lost the house. What he did with all the other money he should have had is unknown and sad. Had he invested it or paid off the house or what ever, he would be in far better shape.

I thought the max was percentage based for some reason and not numerically valued. Learn something new every day.

That makes it a GOOD day!

...
It's funny learning at my previous career how the gov't regulates phone, cable, utilities rate increases, but does nothing where the fatcat money lies.... gas, oil, healthcare.

They do something for gas and oil, they subsidize the suppliers.

 

[MossRoad]

I believe pro-active patients would help a lot.

Many only care what their portion is if any... some will almost brag saying my last hospital stay was 80k and I only had to pay $250 or some small amount.

There is a total disconnect between the consumer and cost. I know of no other purchase where so many are uninterested in cost... of course there are those that do the leg work... they contact all parties prior as they want pricing in writing and not afraid to shop or bargain for elective procedures...

Also... and this is a pet peeve of mine is the "Price" varies greatly... contract or no contract, in network, emergency etc... price requested prior to service vs we will find out when the bills start arriving.

My brother did all the right things for his surgery... at the last minute the anesthesiologist in net work was not available... as in 20 minutes prior but another was substituted... out of network... when it was all said and done... my brother was expected to pay $3100 for out of network and none of this was disclosed... his Doc was called away on a emergency... medical ambush is what I call it.

Brother refused... then the collection calls started coming... each collection letter and call was returned to the Doctors residence... amazing what happens when no one gets back to you and the customer is ringing your door bell....

Surgery typically will have a minimum of 3 components to the bill... facility, anesthesia and surgeon... there are cases facilities simply no longer do because reimbursements do not cover the cost... especially if additional supplies are needed.

Some facilities will work with patients and high volume docs... say 4 cases with one being Medi-Cal in the mix... this way the average tend to work out better.

An informed consumer is the first defense... as is managing expectations.

I have quite a few Doctor and Nurse friends in Austria... Austria is known for having excellent medical training and quite pro active when it comes to the young, expectant mothers and those with a long productive work life ahead...

My Vienna Docs said procedures routine in America for elderly simply are not going to happen in the State system... transplants, cancer routines with very expensive drugs... etc...

Also, Docs there do not worry about lawyers... and employees all have basic coverage...

But... just because it works well for most... there are those that can afford it go elsewhere to have treatment they are not eligible for in Austria... in full disclosure... the gap is narrowing... but was quite extreme even 20 or more years ago.

In my region... a not for profit hospital corp GAVE away a modern, seismic Hospital to the county... and it was not because of utilization because the census was high... it was because such a large percentage of patients had no insurance or were under insured...

Now the county has it and keeps asking for more funding to cover patients not insured.

We also had a stellar Catholic Hospital that service a real need for a variety of things... the Nuns said they could not and would not be a part of mandated "Family" planning... they pulled out and left...

This hospital is struggling but because the need is great... other Hospitals or competitors have stepped up with Million Dollar grants lest these patients show up on their doorstep...

We had two major hospitals in South Bend. One was a Catholic hospital (I was born there). About 7-8 years ago, they built a new hospital in the next town over and moved there. They paid to have their old hospital torn down and the site prepped for the local Catholic high school to build a new building on the old hospital site at no cost to the high school. All free. As I mentioned before, they moved because too many low-income people live here and don't pay their bills. It's only about 5 miles as the crow flies, but a world away from the people that need affordable care and assistance the most. Very hipocritical for an institution that's supposed to be all about helping the needy. It's all about the money.

 

[ultrarunner]

Here it was the abortion and birth control issues that drove away the nuns... they fought it but lost.

The Hospital was 1950's and served over 80% without means... last it was 84%...

On occasion... I would loan or borrow equipment... Sister Superior kept the supply room key on a chain around her neck... never seen such accurate inventory management.

Anyway... I could have anything I needed and they could from me... BUT... for each item I removed she would look me in the eye and said I am responsible and if something happens she will come looking for me... all I could say is yes sister and then she would smile... going to Catholic School didn't hurt either...

It was really amazing the value they provided for the money spent... they also had a way to get medical professional to donate time...

The sister's departure has cost millions to replace...

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I highly commend you for getting your financial house in order especially since you didn't have a good role model to teach you. BTW, divorce is the worst financial plan ever, that is why your dad lost the house. What he did with all the other money he should have had is unknown and sad. Had he invested it or paid off the house or what ever, he would be in far better shape.


That makes it a GOOD day!


They do something for gas and oil, they subsidize the suppliers.

My parents had two properties, my mom got one property valued more with 32 acres and my dad got the house (what he wanted) with 3 acres. There was no reason for him to lose the house, at the time he was running with a lady and they were blowing threw $1000 a night at a local bar, playing tickets, buying drinks, gambling on football games or what ever, he’s always drank heavily, he spent more time at the bar then he did at home when I was growing up.

A guy in the VFW one day told me 4 years ago that they were happy to see my dad come in because they knew they were gonna make money that night lmao! Many years after he walked away from that house. After he “cut back”

 

[bruceha2000]

Here it was the abortion and birth control issues that drove away the nuns... they fought it but lost.

The Hospital was 1950's and served over 80% without means... last it was 84%...

On occasion... I would loan or borrow equipment... Sister Superior kept the supply room key on a chain around her neck... never seen such accurate inventory management.

Anyway... I could have anything I needed and they could from me... BUT... for each item I removed she would look me in the eye and said I am responsible and if something happens she will come looking for me... all I could say is yes sister and then she would smile... going to Catholic School didn't hurt either...

It was really amazing the value they provided for the money spent... they also had a way to get medical professional to donate time...

The sister's departure has cost millions to replace...

Probably doesn't hurt the bottom line that the nuns work cheap. And those running the hospital probably weren't taking in $10 or $20 million a year for their efforts.

 

[ZTMAN]

OP, I read about 90% of this thread and there was some great posts. Do not know what you are going to end up doing, but it seems that you are pretty fond of your property.

If you don't have assets and you have a medical issue, but no insurance, the old saying goes, you can't get blood from a stone. BUT since you appear to have substantial equity in your home, having no insurance and running into a health issue could result in significant financial loss .

I think the vote is almost unanimous, get health insurance.

 

[Fuddy1952]

I don't make this stuff up... my tax dollars at work...

California Is First to Pay for Prisoner’s ***-Reassignment Surgery - The New York Times

It's like California is on another planet. I'm trying to sort it out...commit a crime there, taxpayers pay for my free *** reassignment, so then I would go to a woman's prison, right? But minus a hootie

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

I have chickens here. Not to sell eggs and not 80 chickens. I have enough to supply myself and the kids with eggs.

With the cost of laying feed, I would have allot of chickens to be able to sell enough eggs to make any money

I have been repairing fencing around the property with the thoughts of getting into cattle. Problem is, Everyone I talk to around me says, it's fair amount of work and there really isn't much money in cows.
When I ask them why they have cows, they say, I don't hunt, I don't fish, I don't golf, etc,. I have always fooled with cows. they are just my hobby.

Well, I really don't need any hobbies where I have to put a good amount of work into it.

Older fellow up from me bails hay from his property. Large round bales.
I asked what he does with the hay since he has no cows.
He says, I sell it and make money.
I ask him how much for those large round bales of hay ? He says $30-$35.00.

I ask him how much he has in his hay equipment ? He says probably 100K, or so for equipment. Then, I have the hay fields sprayed for weeds and have them fertilized by a company

I ask him how he figures he's making money selling hay for that price with that much money invested ?
He answers, I guess you could say I'm doing this just for something to do ! LOL

I would buy my chicken feed from the Feedmill that was over an hour away from my house because of their prices. I would buy 1000 to 1200 pounds of chicken feed at a time at around nine dollars a bag. It was pulverized corn with supplements, chickens loved it and it was pretty cheap on the pocket book.

It depends on cattle, It depends on how much pasture you have, how you maintain that pasture, what you feed them to finish them off and your whole set up in general for example access to water etc.

With cattle pasture rotation is key, you can’t let the cattle over graze and keep the grass cut short or it will stunt the grass and it won’t produce as much forage per acre. You also have to have a weed management program in place or weeds will take over, as cattle eat the good forage it’s less competition for the weeds and they get bigger and spread killing out the grass. I had to let my pasture recover this spring and let it grow up.

I learned a lot about grass when I got into hay, it’s important the first cutting be later and let the grass to root, the taller first cutting is more fibrous and less energy, the second cutting is usually a short grow period, this hay will be high energy, much less fiber, highest alfalfa and clover mix and is most profitable, 3rd cutting needs to be timed in a way that you give the plant enough time to recover for winter.

Maintaining a pasture is much the same as growing quality hay, instead of cutting and bailing the forage, the cattle eat it, your growth cycles (first, second and third cutting) will be pasture rotation, let one pasture recover as the other is being fed.

Once you have a good system for cattle, it’s pretty easy. My neighbor has cattle and a guy gives him brewers grains, he feeds some to my cattle when he feeds his cattle, I have a lady bring me bags of Panera bread, left overs that the store couldn’t sell, I feed that to my cattle and give what I don’t need to my neighbor to integrate it into his feeding program. Baked goods are very easy on cattle’s stomach, it’s easy for them to digest it because the grains have been baked. We feed stuff like this to our cattle instead of grain like corn, we will buy corn when the brewers grains and bread dry up which they do now and again. Another good feed is pumpkins, after Halloween collect pumpkins, buy unsold pumpkins from nursery’s, stores, farm markets etc, some will tell you to take what you want. Cattle love pumpkins, cut the stem out, step on the pumpkin to bust it open and throw it in the feed troth and the cattle have a ball, they eat about 80-90% of it. So cattle can be expensive but as a hobby it can also be very profitable. Cattle will eat table scraps of vegetables, bread etc, you can put the word out for local business to save stuff for you, we have neighbors around here that feed my neighbors cattle that are closer to the road, I see them out there a lot feeding them bread or table scraps. People will gladly donate stuff that otherwise would get thrown out if it goes to cattle or livestock.

I will warn you though, don’t plan to raise the cattle to eat yourself, I thought I would save some for myself but every year I sell it all, I just can’t bring myself to eat my own cattle.

Just yesterday my steer got out of my pasture and broke into my neighbors pasture, neighbor woke me up lol when he called me up and told me the steer was in his pasture, I got ready, found out where the steer got out and walked into my neighbors pasture to find his helper trying but failing to get my steer to go from Pasture A, to pasture B that boarders my pasture. When I walked up in pasture B my steer saw me on the fence line and it looked like he got excited to see me, it felt like a dog excited when I first come home. I met the steer at the spot he needed to cross at, he came trotting over and walked right threw for me, I walked threw pasture B and he stayed close paying no attention to my neighbors cattle in the same pasture, I walked out of pasture B to my pasture and instructed my steer to go in and he very willingly walked in for me, I had my halter but didn’t need it, he acted more like a broke horse then he did a bovine.

Cattle know people, my cattle have always trusted me, I am the only person that they will allow to approach if they get out or are stressed, my neighbor and his helper scare my cattle, they will run away from them and won’t do what they want, same as his cattle for me. So when MY cattle get out, no matter what I have to get out there to get the cattle or it’s a losing battle for even someone that has cattle unless they know how to rope it lol. I have helped my neighbor get his cattle back to his pasture but he has to take point and I just cover holes the cattle can run threw, when cattle get stressed they turn more into a rhino lol, they drop their head and try to make a way to escape when they are cornered, it can be a small opening and they will blast threw it.

With all that being said having cattle is a lot of fun, I have it now where I rarely have to haul water (few times during summer, once a week in the winter), I have rainwater being collected for my cattle, now that I have only one steer, I didn’t have to supplement him hay, I am now due to the grass is stunted but I feed with round bales so one bale every 2-3 weeks per head in the winter. So the past year has been little work. Setting up for cattle is a lot of work.

Another point is, if you collect rainwater and don’t clean your waterer but a few times a year, drop in 4 or 5 feeder goldfish in the waterer, they help clean the waterer and provide better water for the cattle. I have been told by horse people that the horses preferred drinking out of the waterer that gets cleaned a few times a year but has the goldfish ca the waterer that gets cleaned weekly due to it being more accessible to be cleaned regularly, that waterer did not have goldfish in it.

Also my buddy’s GF has horses at a near by horse ranch, he’s friends with another horse owner that lets him use their trailer, they gave me permission to use the trailer also. I fold the divider and haul my cattle with it so I don’t have to own a stock trailer.

As far as round bales goes, the farmer will have $15-$20 in each bale after fuel (cutting, raking, baling, fertilizer etc). If he sells for $30-$35 he’s making about $15 per bale. First cut, second cut and third cutting is valued differently. Around here a 4x5 first cut is $25-$35, second cutting $30-$50, third cutting $35-$45. There is a lot of money in hay, if you can sell all you bale and you have a lot of ground.

A good trick with chickens I found out is to collect chopped up leaves off your yard and use it as bedding for the chickens, it gives them something to route threw and eat but it also is more springy for when when it gets cold out, bedding like sand will be like a rock for them in winter, when they fly down from the roost they much prefer landing on a bed of chopped up leaves then wood chips or sand. I layered their bedding in the winter, once a week I sprinkled more bedding in there on top of the leaves, like pine chips from the store or some straw, I would rotate the bedding I used. I chopped the leaves with the lawn mower, collected it and spread it about 10in thick in the coop, my coop was a few horse stalls so it was a lot of leaves lol.

 

[Fuddy1952]

Years ago a neighbor's BULL wandered into my garage...full of cars, tools, equipment, parts. I thought holy...he11!
He wandered all around, I opened the opposite garage door, couldn't believe he didn't hurt a thing! BULL in a China shop story isn't true.
Then I go outside with a big rope, lasso him, then quickly wind end around a big tree. I thought I could hold on...may as well have been a freight train. About that time I see a cattle truck stopped on road, and several of us got him loaded on.

 

[Jstpssng]

Here is what I would look into if I wasn't insured through my employer. Doctors Who Don'''t Take Insurance, Cash Only
I would still carry catastrophic insurance, which is all that I had when I was the OP's age.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Years ago a neighbor's BULL wandered into my garage...full of cars, tools, equipment, parts. I thought holy...he11!
He wandered all around, I opened the opposite garage door, couldn't believe he didn't hurt a thing! BULL in a China shop story isn't true.
Then I go outside with a big rope, lasso him, then quickly wind end around a big tree. I thought I could hold on...may as well have been a freight train. About that time I see a cattle truck stopped on road, and several of us got him loaded on.

Cattle are incredible strong animals, they are very hard to manage when they are stressed, they will run and use every muscle in their bodies to accomplish their goal of escape. They also aren’t clumsy like “Bull in a China Shop” would suggest.

In a pasture cattle are easy on fence, they don’t test fence like a horse will, goats are prob the worst on fences, they climb.

I heard Vegans make this point when it comes to protein, the strongest animals on the planet are plant eaters, rhinos, gorillas, elephants etc. cattle are also very strong.

I buy hay that tests around 20% protein for my cattle, there is plenty of protein in grass lol. I’m not a plant based vegan, I would like to be, I think it’s the healthiest diets out there. I think the American diet is killing us, we have statistics to prove that. That would be a odd combination, vegan hobby cattle farmer

 

[MossRoad]

Myth Busters did a piece on the proverbial bull in a china shop.... quite amusing...