Dangerous times even in small town

   / Dangerous times even in small town #101  
Without knowing his personality, we'll never know if he was some angry gun toter with a chip on his shoulder or a selfless caring individual trying to spare the rest of us from tragedy. Until we know that, I wouldn't describe it as playing cop.

You'd have to wonder if the same thing wouldn't have happened to a trained police officer, as it appeared the woman shooter was well behind her husband shooter, pushing a shopping cart. The husband shooter was the one yelling about the revolution so that might distract anyone from the woman.

Bad situation all around for all involved. :(
 
   / Dangerous times even in small town #102  
Thank God KY has a well thought out Castle Doctrine. If you have to use deadly force there will be no criminal or civil problems.

https://docjt.ky.gov/legal/documents/RCT2014-2CastleDoctrine.ppt

Big thing about your castle law, it is worded properly; "right to defend from an attack in an area where that individual has a right to be". They use "their home" as an example, but as has been tried and proven many times over, "an area where that individual has a right to be" is actually anyplace the individual isn't trespassing.

Another key provision that helps defend those that defend themselves is "no duty to retreat". You don't need to run from someone coming at you with a knife and hope you are a faster runner. You don't need to wait until they have cut you to turn and defend yourself.

As you pointed out, with a legitimate claim of self defense, you have "civil and criminal immunity". Meaning nobody can sue you because you shot their relative that attacked you.

It is nice when the lawmakers actually get one right...
 
   / Dangerous times even in small town #103  
I lived close to the city in an urban-ish suburb. Had someone try to steal my car, stole stuff off my porch, installed a home alarm system. YOu'd get up at 6 am on a sunday morning with fresh snow and there would be foot prints on the sidewalk. Would get solicitors of some kind just about every week knocking at the door.

Moved to a much more rural area...in 20 years here i"ve had 5 knocks on my door. Census taker, religion folks twice and a politician running for office once, and earlier this summer a college kid selling siding or roofing or some crap like that while they were working in the area (and I was out in the yard).

I've come back from being away to find I forgot to lock up, close the door, etc. Never an issue. Never had footprints in the snow.
Only lock my car in the driveway if money or a gun are in it - other than UPS leaving a package inside the car once it's never been touched.

A friend carries 24/7, won't go 'there' if he can't carry -hasn't been to a movie in years, a pro sports event in many many years, the beach (nj, md, etc are anti-gun) - so his kids can't go there either. He's a fireman in a ghetto kind of town (revives folks with narcan often, has been shot at on a call more than once) so that no doubt affects his mental state, so to speak.

REALITY- I've asked around and met ONE person that pulled their weapon. Nobody has yet to shoot one, let alone hit/kill a perp. I belong to a 1100 member gun club, run the cowboy shoots, am an officer in the pistol league, shoot rifle competitions and IDPA - so I run into a LOT of shooters. And cops even.

So odds are, especially if you plan a bit, EXTREMELY small you'll put yourself in a situation that you are at risk. (rule 1 is AVOID danger, right?) And say you are in a 7-11 or a bank or a mall and someone whips out a gun to rob it - are you going to intervene or hide behind the bread? If they pull a gun on you it's too late for you to draw in response. So while it's a great feeling to be armed, REALITY is it's not probably gonna do much good.

And yes, I read the NRA magazine page with the stories about folks that saved themselves and others with a gun. Most seem to be at home BTW. So move someplace safe is rule#1!

I just can't with these posts form you.

Here is the REALITY is this. Kidde sold millions of fire extinguishers last year. Most will never be used. Most people will go through their entire lives without ever experiencing a house fire of any kind. So therefore, having smoke alarms and fire extinguishers is unneeded and paranoid.

You speak to thousands of people re: if they ever used their guns for defense? Cool. I'll spot you 10,000 people. Violent crime rate in the US is 386 per 100,000 people. Shrink that down to 10,000 and you are sub 40. Now it is safe to assume that a lot of the violent crime happens in urban environments. Let's cut that violent crime rt in half. So in the 10,000 people you speak to about this, it is likely less than 20 have been a victim of violent crime. Of those 20, how many were armed at the time and could have defended themselves? PA has about a 10% rate of LTCF (CCW) for the population. I doubt many carry every day. So basically, your sampling size means almost nothing.

Move someplace safe. OK, please tell me where safe is. Over the last 20 years, as a percentage, towns with less than 10,000 people have seen a growth in violent and non violent crimes. They are still the lowest, but there has been a measurable uptick, while most urban areas have seen a measurable downturn. Urban areas are still way more violent, but the statistics hold.

I assume you have some device that predicts when and where crimes will happen. Please sell me a copy of that device, and I will never be a victim of crime.

I know, I will only go to church, those are safe.
Or I will only go to "gun free zones" because those are safe.
Or I will only frequent businesses that proudly sow "NO guns allowed" because those are safe.
Wait a minute. Bad things happen in those places as well, sometimes terrible things.

Your, and I am being extremely loose with the word here, "logic" is flawed at best.

I live in PA. I live in an area where nothing ever happens, and I carry every day, no matter where I go, and have a firearm within reach in every room in my house. Why? Because you never know when the bad thing will happen. I am not paranoid, nor a Rambo. I have no desire to EVER use my firearms to take a life.

That being said, I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
 
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   / Dangerous times even in small town #104  
Without knowing his personality, we'll never know if he was some angry gun toter with a chip on his shoulder or a selfless caring individual trying to spare the rest of us from tragedy. Until we know that, I wouldn't describe it as playing cop.

You'd have to wonder if the same thing wouldn't have happened to a trained police officer, as it appeared the woman shooter was well behind her husband shooter, pushing a shopping cart. The husband shooter was the one yelling about the revolution so that might distract anyone from the woman.

Bad situation all around for all involved. :(

Agreed.

The CC permit holder shot was 31, living at home, and wanted to become a Las Vegas Police officer.

It is not for me to judge the actions of others, but when shooting starts, you either get the heck out of dodge AWAY from the threat or you find a defensive position and hold your ground to the death. You should never go AFTER the threat IMO. The shooters in Vegas gave no impression that they wanted to kill innocent civilians, the shot fired was into the ceiling to clear the building, and talked crap about a "revolution".
 
   / Dangerous times even in small town #105  
Maybe a guy shouldn't go anywhere without carrying a fire extinguisher and booster cables! Heck, maybe that's what people carry in all those stupid back packs!

I'm sure Murphy would intervine. You could carry 364 days of the year and need it that other one day!

Violence and shooting someone is one thing. But when criminals fully realize that they will not be challenged in their criminal activity, all hellll will break loose. Just a free for all. Don't have to be here legally, don't have to pay taxes, just take what you want, when you want. Lovely!
 
   / Dangerous times even in small town #106  
Violent crime rate in the US is 386 per 100,000 people. Shrink that down to 10,000 and you are sub 4.

Uh, I think you might want to review that math. (38.6 if you use 10,000)


And prof fate's point is valid, IMHO....location has a lot to do with statistics. His point about the number of people that knocked on his door since moving rural can further be reduced to near zero (near impossible to escape those pesky census takers) by the use of a gated entrance, because that is our experience.

While I have loaded, chambered firearms quite handy here at home, I don't carry here at home normally. When I go to town, where the odds of an incident rise, I do carry, or have one in the vehicle.
 
   / Dangerous times even in small town #109  
I live about as remote as a person can get - except Doofy. Seventeen years ago - almost to the day - late at night - heard the door shut on a vehicle. Looked out the kitchen window - a pickup was parked in the yard. Called 911 - fortunately the call for assistance was transferred to the State Police who had an officer in the vicinity. Once the police vehicle was coming down my driveway there was no place for the pickup and two guys to escape. They had many of my tools and equipment loaded in their pickup.

I or they were lucky - they were only coming to rob. If they had entered my house - no quam whatsoever - I would have shot them both dead - dead as door nails. And I would have kept shooting until it was more than obvious that they were both stone cold dead.

My tolerance for those who would rob or intend to do bodily harm is an absolute ZERO. It is proven - day after day - we as citizens of this great country must be prepared to defend ourselves - our criminal justice system seldom can.

TOTALLY AGREE!
I am 78 years old, and if ANYONE threatens my life, I will try to take theirs first!
What have I got to loose?
Just my life!
 
   / Dangerous times even in small town #110  
Agreed.

The CC permit holder shot was 31, living at home, and wanted to become a Las Vegas Police officer.

It is not for me to judge the actions of others, but when shooting starts, you either get the heck out of dodge AWAY from the threat or you find a defensive position and hold your ground to the death. You should never go AFTER the threat IMO. The shooters in Vegas gave no impression that they wanted to kill innocent civilians, the shot fired was into the ceiling to clear the building, and talked crap about a "revolution".

Yeah, well..... from what I've been reading lately, with all these mass shootings, the police are no longer taking a defensive position, and have changed their tactics so they are running TOWARDS the threat quickly. I guess the theory is that if enough people engage the shooter, they'll stop the shooter sooner than later and that action will probably save civilian lives, at greater peril to the officers VS taking a defensive position.

As for the shooters in the video giving no impression that they wanted to kill innocent civilians.... if I'm in a Walmart and some guy walks in shouting about revolution and fires a shot, I'm gonna first, crap my pants, then second, figure he's here to hurt everyone. Third, I'm gonna grab my family members and run the other way, and fourth, grab any little kids and confused/clueless adults and take em with me on my way in the opposite direction of the shooter. Lastly, I'd get outside if possible and direct the police to what I saw as best as I could remember. Since I don't carry a gun, I wouldn't engage or distract a shooter unless I was trapped or maybe saw them bearing down on another person. I really don't know what I'd do in the Walmart situation.

I've told a story here before about having a shotgun pulled on me in a Dairy Queen parking lot when I was 16. I had some pretty good firearms training for a couple years before that. I was quit surprised that at the time, I remained calm, thought about escape routes and how to get out of the line of fire and get the guy to focus on me instead of my 14 year old best friend, who I was responsible for at the time. I mentally manipulated this massive guy that was screaming at me and made him step between me and the other guy holding the shotgun without him even knowing it so now the shotgun was pointed at his back, not my face. It was at that point that if I had a gun on me, I would have pulled it and shot the big guy and then gone after the shotgun holder that was still inside his car. He was trapped in there and had no line on me at that point, as he was in the passenger seat with the gun pointed over his right shoulder and I was ready to move to the left rear corner of the car.

Anyhow, it's amazing the things you think about when someone is holding a shotgun on you at close range, even at a young age, if you've had some training.
 

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