Update on RX6010 with low hours motor failure

[coobie]

Funny....you have to lighten up...get a hobby...something....I'm going to haul firewood! :dance1:

Is that like ha,ha funny?Got plenty of hobbies want me to list them? How about you?Hey how about them green bay packers?Been a fan for quite sometime(one of my many hobbies)went to a game in green bay sept 30th against the bills.Oh forgot one,deer hunting is a hobby pic of couple in our side yard..

 

[ch1ch2]

I have seen several post referring to the minimal number of post by some.
While I agree with the thought process and the general correctness of this idea, let me play the devils advocate.

I have been here a while and I do not have all that many posts. That is because generally there are many well educated and highly experienced people here whom have have given an answer equal to or better to what mine would be, or I do not feel my answer would help.

There are a lot of people here that have less knowledge or experience than others.
If that is the case, then when they voice a complaint, they should not be vilified for not having "enough" posts.
They might be wanting to get involved and make a post, but just do not have words that they feel would be worthy of posting.

Again I am just playing the devils advocate. This is not meant to be in response to any one specific, just saying.

 

[finn1]

If the failure was a dropped valve caused by keeper shear, there are only a couple of scenarios that can cause this.

Keeper shearing occurs when valve seating velocity exceeds design criteria. The cause of the higher than designed seating velocity is lash in the system such that the Valve acceleration (deceleration) results in loads that exceed the strength of the keeper. The lash in the system allows the valve to slam onto the seat from the high velocity portion of the cam flank rather than on the low velocity ramp.

Ok, how does one get excessive lash? If the engine has hydraulic valve lifters, most likely it was run low on oil, allowing the hydraulic lifters to collapse.

Other scenarios are overspeed, which is unlikely in a governed Diesel tractor engine, but very common in diesel trucks on long downhill stretches where the engine overspeeds while descending in a low gear.

A third scenario would be excessive wear in the valve train, eg worn adjusters in a flat tapper valve train. This would be obvious to the analyst, though.

I spent something like 35 years as a development engineer working on Diesel engines and worked on keeper shear warranty issues.

Sheared keepers are an operator/ maintenance issue. All engines are subject to these failures.

It hurts for the op to hear this, but no Oem will cover an out of warranty claim when something so obvious to a trained and experienced warranty analyst as a case of sheared keepers is evident.

 

[DK35vince]

If the failure was a dropped valve caused by keeper shear, there are only a couple of scenarios that can cause this.

Keeper shearing occurs when valve seating velocity exceeds design criteria. The cause of the higher than designed seating velocity is lash in the system such that the Valve acceleration (deceleration) results in loads that exceed the strength of the keeper. The lash in the system allows the valve to slam onto the seat from the high velocity portion of the cam flank rather than on the low velocity ramp.

Ok, how does one get excessive lash? If the engine has hydraulic valve lifters, most likely it was run low on oil, allowing the hydraulic lifters to collapse.

Other scenarios are overspeed, which is unlikely in a governed Diesel tractor engine, but very common in diesel trucks on long downhill stretches where the engine overspeeds while descending in a low gear.

A third scenario would be excessive wear in the valve train, eg worn adjusters in a flat tapper valve train. This would be obvious to the analyst, though.

I spent something like 35 years as a development engineer working on Diesel engines and worked on keeper shear warranty issues.

Sheared keepers are an operator/ maintenance issue. All engines are subject to these failures.

It hurts for the op to hear this, but no Oem will cover an out of warranty claim when something so obvious to a trained and experienced warranty analyst as a case of sheared keepers is evident.

We don't know what the failure was for sure because the OP refuses to answer simple questions (if it was a Mfg. defect what is there to hide he can't answer these questions ???)
Also wondering why the block heater was laying on the ground in 1 of his photos.
Did it get knocked off, or fall off due to improper installation and overheated. Drill into the cylinder wall installing the block heater (like this thread?)https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums...84-damaged-block-installing-block-heater.html
Guess we will never know since we the OP refuses to answer simple questions.

 

[woolyAcres]

@finn1

Sheared keepers are an operator/ maintenance issue. All engines are subject to these failures.

I'm clearly ignorant on the internal design of engines. What's the proper maintenance for this?

 

[woolyAcres]

YEP,sure do it's called kioti tractor..How about you??

I don't follow this. Why does owning the same brand tractor mean you have a dog in this fight? Seems to me the only 2 parties with a dog in this fight are the original poster and Koiti/dealer. Who else could/would be on the hook for fixing this? Certainly not other Kioti owners.

Seems some here are arguing that this can't be Kioti's fault simply because if it were, somehow the tractor they own is now less valuable or durable. I don't follow that.

Like most forum members, I'd like to know more details but if I were the OP, I'd probably block this thread due to rude comments. That'd would be unfortunate for all the rest of us who will never get to hear the end of the story.

 

[radios1]

If the failure was a dropped valve caused by keeper shear, there are only a couple of scenarios that can cause this.

Keeper shearing occurs when valve seating velocity exceeds design criteria. The cause of the higher than designed seating velocity is lash in the system such that the Valve acceleration (deceleration) results in loads that exceed the strength of the keeper. The lash in the system allows the valve to slam onto the seat from the high velocity portion of the cam flank rather than on the low velocity ramp.

Ok, how does one get excessive lash? If the engine has hydraulic valve lifters, most likely it was run low on oil, allowing the hydraulic lifters to collapse.

Other scenarios are overspeed, which is unlikely in a governed Diesel tractor engine, but very common in diesel trucks on long downhill stretches where the engine overspeeds while descending in a low gear.

A third scenario would be excessive wear in the valve train, eg worn adjusters in a flat tapper valve train. This would be obvious to the analyst, though.

I spent something like 35 years as a development engineer working on Diesel engines and worked on keeper shear warranty issues.

Sheared keepers are an operator/ maintenance issue. All engines are subject to these failures.

It hurts for the op to hear this, but no Oem will cover an out of warranty claim when something so obvious to a trained and experienced warranty analyst as a case of sheared keepers is evident.

defective springs can cause this, as well as defective keepers, I've heard of both!. and there should not be excessive wear on the valve train on such a new engine unless it lost oil pressure.. so it's not necessarily an operator/ maintenance issue..

 

[JimR]

We don't know what the failure was for sure because the OP refuses to answer simple questions (if it was a Mfg. defect what is there to hide he can't answer these questions ???)
Also wondering why the block heater was laying on the ground in 1 of his photos.
Did it get knocked off, or fall off due to improper installation and overheated. Drill into the cylinder wall installing the block heater (like this thread?)https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums...84-damaged-block-installing-block-heater.html
Guess we will never know since we the OP refuses to answer simple questions.

The OP mentioned that the cylinder head cracked. If it dropped a valve and cracked the head the compression would go into the cooling chambers and blow the block heater out.

 

[JimR]

defective springs can cause this, as well as defective keepers, I've heard of both!. and there should not be excessive wear on the valve train on such a new engine unless it lost oil pressure.. so it's not necessarily an operator/ maintenance issue..

I agree with you 100 percent and a low mileage motor like this should not have run out of oil or lost oil pressure. There is no doubt a failure of a part which caused this to happen. Just like my tractor having a bad hand lever controller with only 345 hours on it that has seen minimum usage being pushed up and down over the past 2 years.

 

[4570Man]

I agree with you 100 percent and a low mileage motor like this should not have run out of oil or lost oil pressure. There is no doubt a failure of a part which caused this to happen. Just like my tractor having a bad hand lever controller with only 345 hours on it that has seen minimum usage being pushed up and down over the past 2 years.

There’s other reasons it could run out of oil. And this is the 3rd thread in a brief period that refuses to give any details yet claims they have been wrongly denied warranty. Anyone smell fish?

 

[paulfun9]

It was 5 years 3 months old I believe.

Yeah, I'm not the really vindictive type, just want others to know of my experiences. My personal perspective is that if I have to jump through hoops to pressure a company into doing something, it's not a company I want anything to do with.

Just going to repair, sell and move on......

I wonder who the other brand dealers You mention are?

We have heard all the B.S. from all the dealers before and we have been dealing with tractors for a long time. This is the one truth I will tell you, Unless the dealer is going to eat the cost themselves you will have to jump threw hoops or play a waiting game while a good dealer fights it out with the manufactureing company to get an approval to fix it. You will also learn that in many cases the cost will end up split between You, The Dealer and the Company but it is most uncommon for the Company to eat the hole cost.

We have been threw it many times in our family with dealers who promised the world but could only cover the square block they are located on.

Last time around here it was JD with some electronic thing buried inside the machine with no other way to reach it except to split the tractor. (Some great design?) that had all the electronics going crazy.
Yep that dealer had promised the world also but in the end the cost was split 3 ways and they even had to fly out a specialist to figure out the problem because the local dealerships (all local out to a 2 hour drive) could not figure out the problem.

Don稚 get me wrong as I am not trying to side with any company who won稚 quickly and honestly evaluate a problem of this nature but unless you get lucky and have no real problems with all the others I honestly feel you will be disappointed with every single brand if you could have the same exact problem with one from each manufacture right now and experience just how similar the service, or lack of would be.

 

[xcgreene]

I think its important to scrutinize posts like this closely. Otherwise I feel there would be an even bigger pile of propaganda floating around. Like driving down the highway, looking at billboards during election season of either side. Responses may come off as harsh I suppose, if a new member posts a bit vaguely about an issue like VTDT has here. But once the details are on the table, a great conversation can steam ahead. If no more details are given, then we have effectively filtered out BS. I honestly can't think of a better filtering process for this type of thing, as its such a case by case issue.

 

[JimR]

There’s other reasons it could run out of oil. And this is the 3rd thread in a brief period that refuses to give any details yet claims they have been wrongly denied warranty. Anyone smell fish?

What I would really like to see is pictures of the destroyed parts and the inside of the motor, top of the pistons and underside of the head. Being a mechanic for many years and still wrenching on my own equipment and vehicles O am always interested in destruction and what caused it.

 

[Lockport]

@finn1
I'm clearly ignorant on the internal design of engines. What's the proper maintenance for this?

Maintain close attention to the required volume of oil.

 

[Lockport]

This isn't really a brand issue but that simply failures do occur. A warranty period is extended to the customer for a reasonable period of time. In curious and outlandish incidences, warranties are often extended beyond the initial period to satisfy the customer and the companies reputation. However certainly certain types of breakages leave a fingerprint that trained and experienced engineers have expertise in immediate identification. As such, I wouldn't expect to see such extended gratuities. Again, it is very reinforcing of the expressed suspicions of most that the original OP has made absolutely no effort whatsoever to clarify, extend, or even defend his original allegation. As much as most, and I, are curious of the cause, that is simply a TBNers nature.

 

[radios1]

There’s other reasons it could run out of oil. And this is the 3rd thread in a brief period that refuses to give any details yet claims they have been wrongly denied warranty. Anyone smell fish?

nope the guy may have no knowledge of the workings of an engine, many people don't, so they try to describe something that they don't know about, and it comes out wrong..

 

[HEC]

This just in from a client:

Reminds me I showed Mike what you posted on that Kioti tractor. We looked at that brand this summer and we値l, now it痴 off our list for a future tractor upgrade.

The Internet is not a friend of poor service.

Couldn't agree more

 

[LouNY]

Couldn't agree more

The internet CAN be a tool,
much of the time it will have more misinformation than actual usable and true information;
the hard part is correctly weeding out the garbage.

 

[coobie]

If some folks are looking answers/pics why the OP,s Kioti engine took a dump my bet you will be waiting a long time? Let me see now OP join date 11/30/18 check,first post 12/1/18 check,last post 12/13/18 check..Does troll ring a bell?Hope I am wrong love to see some pics myself but I think not.

 

[Threepoint]

nope the guy may have no knowledge of the workings of an engine, many people don't, so they try to describe something that they don't know about, and it comes out wrong..

Yes, this may certainly be so in the OP's case. Even basic stuff, like checking the engine oil dipstick occasionally. 450 hours is low usage in the overall service expectancy of these CUTs, but it's plenty of time for engine failure if this simple practice is honored in its breach. Which brings us back to a perfectly logical possibility here. See Finn1's post #63. As I commented earlier, there is another side of this story, Kioti's, and undoubtedly more than the OP has as of yet shared in his two threads. Perhaps more than he is yet aware of, to give him the benefit of the doubt. But it's been crickets from him for days, so we may only be entertaining ourselves at this point.