Driverless Cars

[Gale Hawkins]

Oops! Autonomous robot struck and killed by a self-driving Tesla in Las Vegas ahead of CES | Daily Mail Online

I found this to be a bit ironic.

 

[Jstpssng]

Thanks for that info. I could get in and out of the X I think if I had $100K that I would never otherwise need.

Our Week in the Tesla Model X — Cars.com - YouTube

I'm not sure how they call that an SUV, but it is an interesting link. I still haven't figured out how heat, lights, windshield wipers et al affect performance.

An EV could be a great second vehicle when they get the battery power worked out, but they will have to come down in price immensely . (And I'm not big on government funding private purchases) I could make the 200 mile trip to my mother's house, plug it in (I'm already bringing power to my father's old work shop) and be ready to come home the next day.
You could even bring it to your remote camp and use it for a power source at night, although it would need to be charging during the day.

 

[cqaigy2]

Oops! Autonomous robot struck and killed by a self-driving Tesla in Las Vegas ahead of CES | Daily Mail Online

I found this to be a bit ironic.

Funny!

Now if only Tesla had a self driving car.

 

[Reg]

Having been a delivery driver, I don't see the tech anywhere close to the situations I had to face. I've driven across country 22 times. There is no way AI has a better solution. It can't for instance say, It will take the longer route, to avoid a congestion, that is built in to its algorithm. Thats what people can do. I can enjoy the different route, the longer route, even if it doesn't save me time, the other longer route enriches my life. That is something a computer can never do.

I don't know how you got to the conclusion that "AI" can't reroute based on traffic congestion - with real time info it is likely to do a MUCH BETTER job at that than humans who merely intuit that "it is crush hour, so lets take back roads"
I have had street atlas for over 15 years I sometimes pick the "scenic route" option, sometimes "shortest route" sometimes "fastest route", there is a "bicycle route" too.
If I am hauling with more than 8 tires on the road I will usually pick "avoid toll roads" as a trial routing, then decide if I am willing to pay the tolls for the time savings - point is I have choices.
No reason autonomous vehicles couldn't offer similar options, I would expect them to.

Here's a little puzzle that I haven't (yet) seen a proposed solution for;
I would LIKE to have a routing for "smoothest ride", the reason being that I haul horses a lot and bumps represent a fatigue factor.
I route largely by experience to avoid likely stop and go traffic, on/off the brakes is another fatigue factor.
I do NOT use I-95 up and down the east coast for this very reason, I route west of all the coastal cities.
This is EASY with any mapping/routing software, I just add a VIA or two to take me inland, e.g. the Newburg Beacon bridge over the Hudson river.
Autonomous vehicles SHOULD be able to understand instructions of the type;
"Take me to place X via place Y, optimize steady speed above total journey time, pick refreshment stops every n minutes".
Heck I can buy a thousand dollar drone that can pretty much do that and it will return to base if/when it detects that its battery is getting too low to get there.

This isn't a TECHNOLOGY problem, it is an acceptance problem.

 

[sd455dan]

re earlier post re how "close" autonomous vehicles may be.

To misquote my passenger side mirror; Events in the future are closer than they appear.

I believe that all the enabling technologies are already HERE and have been for quite a while.
With the exception of IDIOTS climbing into the back seat to get video of their Tesla "driving itself" public acceptance is lagging.
{Teslas are NOT "self driving", they have some fairly advanced driver assistance features.}
Regulatory acceptance is lagging even more - but legislation has ALWAYS lagged progress - and probably should.
================================================
BTW, I test "drove" a Tesla 3 last week.
I expected a different kind of car, but it was differently different.
First up; The door mirrors were very small - explanation; you're not expected to use them in quite the same way(s).
There is a HUGE tablet in the center that is supposed to be used for a LOT of driver controlled functions and settings - that and voice control, siri style.
I commented that I would prefer that the move away from "dash" instruments be toward heads up display, the test drive sales guy countered that with something about engineering out the "need" to check instruments.
I think I countered with "so why display that stuff on a tablet screen".
It devolved into a safety concern about near focus to far focus being ONE of the problems with texting - I would still prefer head up display of whatever I still need to look at - to keep far focus.


I probably WON'T buy one, it is low to the ground.
I am old, large and inflexible.
It is NOT easy for me to get into or out of, probably harder for my spouse.
Light truck sized SUVs fit us more easily.

HARD to believe that Musk didn't see the WWII baby boomers as a market sweet spot in their retirement years - maybe their NEXXT one will be easy entry/exit ?

Looks like China is making what would sell here... (at least as far as size
-sits higher than a Model X) and is very similar to most US sold mid sized 4x4 Cross over SUVs
sells in China for about 45K in US dollars. Easy entry exit
Buick could import it since SAIC already builds the Buick Envision.

OR better YET GM could retool some of the shuttered plants and build something similar Here

(SAIC ROEWE MG) Marvel X
- I Like the interior is fully wireless connected Level 3-4? autonomy
Has several other nice features
AWD 4.8 sec 0-60 power moon roof and sunshade,seats ~250 mile range

SAIC parent company of STEC has come a long way from building tractors like my (Shanghai) Rhino and basic transportation cars...

don't know how the feature that launches a drone that can be piloted from the vehicle (which is in Beta testing) will go over, also this vehicle is being tested for wireless vehicle charging.

this vid from 4:30 - 7:10 highlights it for India sales

We head to China to drive MG & ROEWE cars from SAIC Motor - YouTube

hopefully Tesla Model Y will make entry exit easier and higher up. getting in low slung cars really is not as easy when a person gets older, and an electric AWD vehicle with some ground clearance for snow and bad roads is a plus imo

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Move aside, backseat driver! New tech at CES monitors you inside car | Reuters

Technology saving us from ourselves?

 

[Reg]

Move aside, backseat driver! New tech at CES monitors you inside car | Reuters

Technology saving us from ourselves?

The collective "us" or the "we" ?
Of course "I" don't want MY car collecting evidence of MY inattentive driving just before "I" plow into "You".

OTOH, I really WANT the evidence that YOUR car has of you running the stop sign at the time at 20 above the limit.

Which shoe on which "other" foot.
etc.


I'd prefer "saving us from each other".

 

[prof fate]

They say the avg person drives 50 or fewer miles a day.
How many miles do you drive per day?

so a car with a 200 mile range shouldn't be an issue for most of us. And again, other than single person households we've all got 2 or more vehicles - so one could easily be electric.

a nissan leaf is about 30k, before any gov't subsidy. the new plus is more, but goes farther. The current leaf is 150 mile range.
219 Nissan LEAF Charging & Range | Nissan USA

And there are used ones from $12k (29k miles)
http://cpo.nissanusa.com/search-inv...ch.carousel.view_results&zip=15066&model=1692

Yeah, may be my next car, or the volt...not sure what else is out there, tesla is outta my price range.

I'm not sure how they call that an SUV, but it is an interesting link. I still haven't figured out how heat, lights, windshield wipers et al affect performance.

An EV could be a great second vehicle when they get the battery power worked out, but they will have to come down in price immensely . (And I'm not big on government funding private purchases) I could make the 200 mile trip to my mother's house, plug it in (I'm already bringing power to my father's old work shop) and be ready to come home the next day.
You could even bring it to your remote camp and use it for a power source at night, although it would need to be charging during the day.

 

[Jchonline]

I think once the autonomous technology advances to the point where cars pretty much drive themselves....we will care much less about the vehicles capabilities. It will be kind of like riding a bus or catching an Uber.

Once that happens, then we wont care if the vehicle is electric or gas or natural gas or anything else.

 

[3930dave]

I think once the autonomous technology advances to the point where cars pretty much drive themselves....we will care much less about the vehicles capabilities. It will be kind of like riding a bus or catching an Uber.

Once that happens, then we wont care if the vehicle is electric or gas or natural gas or anything else.

Business-wise, I find this point very interesting.....

Much of the billions that vehicle companies have made centre around marketing lifestyle products to us "unique individuals".......

So.... what happens to their profit margins when a big chunk of the "driving" public is only using autonomous fleets of appliances ? The corporations that own those fleets are only going to care about 2 things..... Cost, and Reliability.

I'm used to this kind of race-to-the-bottom with electronics companies, but I thought the vehicle manufacturers were smarter than that.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Autonomous Vehicle Hardware Summit | Kisaco Research

While I doubt any here are interested in shelling out the money to attend this event I post it just to show how the autonomous vehicle is far beyond the backyard hobby shop phase.

There is a reason Ford and VW are coming together so they do not total miss the autonomous EV market that is out pacing 100 year old IC engine driven car companies. Companies like GM, Ford, VW, etc may not even be players by 2050 if they make serious missteps in the next 2-4 years. Engines, transmissions and the rest of the drive line parts just no longer apply.

Software will be the brains of the EV and I expect China may be the long term winner. Who would have thought 10-15 years ago we would have a thread on EC's (electric chainsaws) and have them in our hands today? Where are the parts in today's EC's coming from?

 

[Reg]

Business-wise, I find this point very interesting.....

Much of the billions that vehicle companies have made centre around marketing lifestyle products to us "unique individuals".......

So.... what happens to their profit margins when a big chunk of the "driving" public is only using autonomous fleets of appliances ? The corporations that own those fleets are only going to care about 2 things..... Cost, and Reliability.

I'm used to this kind of race-to-the-bottom with electronics companies, but I thought the vehicle manufacturers were smarter than that.....

Rgds, D.

Not smarter at all, I think Ford and GM have already seen the light at the end of the tunnel as what may well be the express train coming toward them. No more gas passenger cars from Ford, no more hybrids from GM, etc.

As far as having an electric vehicle of my own, yes the range is clearly adequate for MOST of my driving.
It would take a minor change of habit to actually untangle a cord each night and plug it in and of course unplug it before driving off on a sleepy morning, but cordless charging will solve that - probably before I actually buy an electric vehicle.
Right now I think I would want a generator about the size of a chain saw in the trunk for emergency charging, just in case I screw up - hey, I've run out of gas a few times over the decades so it COULD happen (-:


BTW my own career includes being an "on site resident" hardware engineer on main frames(which had a LOT less power than is now in a cell phone).
I know more than a little bit about technology obviating the need for skill and experience.

 

[Oaktree]

Not smarter at all, I think Ford and GM have already seen the light at the end of the tunnel as what may well be the express train coming toward them. No more gas passenger cars from Ford, no more hybrids from GM, etc.

Not really sure what you mean by the tunnel/train analogy. Yes, sedan sales are soft, with truck and pseudo-SUVs the strong sellers these days, but gas is cheap today. What'll happen if prices spike again (and we know it will)? These companies are gonna be caught flat-footed like they were during the 70s gas crisis.

As far as having an electric vehicle of my own, yes the range is clearly adequate for MOST of my driving.
It would take a minor change of habit to actually untangle a cord each night and plug it in and of course unplug it before driving off on a sleepy morning, but cordless charging will solve that - probably before I actually buy an electric vehicle.

Key word here, "most". What would you do if you needed to take a trip longer than a couple hundred miles, or to somewhere lacking quick-charge facilities (such as an off-the-grid camp)? I've never even seen a Tesla in real life, let alone driven one, but I'd imagine the range drops considerably in either hot (A/C) or cold (heater) weather.
I always wondered why the technology GM used in the Volt (ie-electrically powered, but an on-board generator) didn't catch on. To me it makes waaay more sense than a straight electric that needs to be charged with shore power. How long does a "fillup" take? I'm under the impression it's several hours, even with the high-current "fast" chargers.

Getting back to the viability of autonomous vehicles...I'm sure someday the technology will improve to the point where they're at least somewhat capable (at least in urban/suburban areas), but is there a market for them other than those who need to be the first on their block to have the latest gadget? .
Again, maybe for city dwellers or others where owning a vehicle is more of a hassle than it's worth this might make sense, but I just don't see it happening in my lifetime out here in the sticks.

 

[LouNY]

Not really sure what you mean by the tunnel/train analogy. Yes, sedan sales are soft, with truck and pseudo-SUVs the strong sellers these days, but gas is cheap today. What'll happen if prices spike again (and we know it will)? These companies are gonna be caught flat-footed like they were during the 70s gas crisis.



Key word here, "most". What would you do if you needed to take a trip longer than a couple hundred miles, or to somewhere lacking quick-charge facilities (such as an off-the-grid camp)? I've never even seen a Tesla in real life, let alone driven one, but I'd imagine the range drops considerably in either hot (A/C) or cold (heater) weather.
I always wondered why the technology GM used in the Volt (ie-electrically powered, but an on-board generator) didn't catch on. To me it makes waaay more sense than a straight electric that needs to be charged with shore power. How long does a "fillup" take? I'm under the impression it's several hours, even with the high-current "fast" chargers.

Getting back to the viability of autonomous vehicles...I'm sure someday the technology will improve to the point where they're at least somewhat capable (at least in urban/suburban areas), but is there a market for them other than those who need to be the first on their block to have the latest gadget? .
Again, maybe for city dwellers or others where owning a vehicle is more of a hassle than it's worth this might make sense, but I just don't see it happening in my lifetime out here in the sticks.

Couldn't agree more, especially with the electrically power with an on board generator.
I have thought for many years that a 35-45 hp diesel tuned for a small rpm range on a generator in an electric vehicle would be the best.
I will look at electric when it has a true 4wd drive and a excellent heating system with a decent range say 200-250 miles with heat on and wipers and defrosters going in a snow storm.

 

[Reg]

The light at the end of the tunnel joke is so old that it is probably forgotten by many.

WRT the gas crunch in the 70s and hybrid vehicles; I remember the Renault "Le Car" (Renault 5 in Europe) that were converted to run with an even smaller engine charging a battery pack and driving through IIRC aircraft engine starter motors.
I still LIKE the idea of a small gas engine that puts out very little power, but buffers it to a battery for PEAK power demand.

The other thing I haven't seen exploited much is that the area of hood, roof and trunk lids could be used as solar collectors - possibly collecting enough "free" energy while folk are at their place of work for the drive home.
A local company has provided shaded parking for many of their employees, utilizing the roof for solar collectors.
Popular with the employees in summer and winter.

 

[LD48750]

How would one do out here in the country with no garage, 8-12 inches of unplowed 1/4 mile long drive to gravel roads in below 0 temps?

 

[Jstpssng]

Couldn't agree more, especially with the electrically power with an on board generator.
I have thought for many years that a 35-45 hp diesel tuned for a small rpm range on a generator in an electric vehicle would be the best.
I will look at electric when it has a true 4wd drive and a excellent heating system with a decent range say 200-250 miles with heat on and wipers and defrosters going in a snow storm.

I've always said the same thing. They've been doing it with locomotives for decades. Considering that both of the Kubotas I've owned only burned 2 quarts of fuel per hour when operating at 2200RPMs, at 50mph that would be about 100 miles/gallon.

How would one do out here in the country with no garage, 8-12 inches of unplowed 1/4 mile long drive to gravel roads in below 0 temps?

That's one of many reasons why it's your second vehicle. You plow the driveway first with your diesel F350.
I have yet to find out how much things like cabin climate control, headlights, windshield wipers et.al. reduce the travelling range.

About 25 years ago the University of Maine had an older S-10 regular cab which was solar powered; the panel covered the entire pickup bed.
More recently on the History channel they showed the military experimenting with lithium power Humvees; with a motor for each wheel, all operating independently they would spin it right around in a circle.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

How would one do out here in the country with no garage, 8-12 inches of unplowed 1/4 mile long drive to gravel roads in below 0 temps?

About the same as they do with a gas engine I expect. I would love to own the EV 2014 Ford F-150 600 HP PU they had at a major car show.

 

[Reg]

How would one do out here in the country with no garage, 8-12 inches of unplowed 1/4 mile long drive to gravel roads in below 0 temps?

I would PROBABLY watch the charge level indicator and IIRC the Teslas (maybe others) display available range and map to closest charge station.

OTOH, if I had little more than a fishing shack DEEP in the woods ...the chances are GOOD that I would have a 5 or 10 HP generator there ANYWAY for comfort and survival reasons.
Of course a 5 gallon can of reasonably fresh gas on hand, etc.
If not; well, we can imagine survival situations that are impossible to get out of, so just don't get into them.

 

[Redneck in training]

Heating of the EV is not a problem because of the motor(s) and possibly some of the electronics are liquid cooled. In other words there is a waste heat available for heating.
Speaking about electronics. I commission rotating machinery for living. I remember time when VFD used to be a monster installed in several cabinets with high number of water cooled thyristors. VFD for about the same power takes about half empty cabinet today. Only those for big motors are liquid cooled.