Driverless Cars

[3930dave]

Car 1, camera 0.

Driverless car laser ruined camera - BBC News

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I expect the magnetic north pole moving towards Russia that is in the news will impact the driverless car at some point in time as well. The laser story concerns me.

 

[LD48750]

I expect the magnetic north pole moving towards Russia that is in the news will impact the driverless car at some point in time as well. The laser story concerns me.

Would that be part of President Trumps "collusion" with Russia?

 

[prof fate]

Would that be part of President Trumps "collusion" with Russia?

the magnetic north pole has been drifting for a long long time, but it's accelerating - moving as much in the past 20-30 years as in the 100 before it. They used to adjust for it (gps, etc) every 2-3 years, now it's 18 months.

 

[mapper]

Many off the posts here concern the conflicts between autonomous vehicles and those with human drivers. I think that transitional time is going to be the most challenging. Once the transition to autonomous is made many of the safety issues will go away.
The issue of extreme conditions has always been around and vehicles adapted or built for those conditions will still be necessary. Just because something is not appropriate for 100 percent of the environments found around where humans are does not mean it is not viable if it is suitable for 90 percent, the issue is is it going to be economically viable to accommodate the remaining 10 percent?
I can see a where in the not too far off future non autonomous vehicles could be banned in urban areas. When we rural dwellers want to go to town we drive to the outskirts and park at a facility where we can summon a driverless car to take us to our final destination.
We are planning on attending a concert event in Tacoma in the next few months, my wife is handicapped and limited in how far she can walk. Our chances of finding parking near the Tacoma Dome are not good. So the plan is to park at a friend's home within the urban area and take an uber to the event, it will deliver us to the front gate without the hassle of trying to find a parking space near the event. A few years ago I don't think that I would have ever considered this sort of solution to the problem, we all evolve.

 

[Oaktree]

The issue of extreme conditions has always been around and vehicles adapted or built for those conditions will still be necessary. Just because something is not appropriate for 100 percent of the environments found around where humans are does not mean it is not viable if it is suitable for 90 percent, the issue is is it going to be economically viable to accommodate the remaining 10 percent?
I can see a where in the not too far off future non autonomous vehicles could be banned in urban areas. When we rural dwellers want to go to town we drive to the outskirts and park at a facility where we can summon a driverless car to take us to our final destination.

I don't see viability even approaching 90%...maybe 60% or so a long way down the road. But this is all a moot point once government mandates get involved, which we all know are more dependent on the political winds than on any remote sense of practicality or public demand.
When the government demands that all passenger vehicles need to be electric, self-driving, whatever by a certain date what becomes of those for whom this will never make sense? Or, for that matter to those of us who prefer to drive a "traditional" vehicle (whatever that may mean in the future)? Another choice being taken away from us?

What about trucks? Many of us use them off-road as well as on.

As I've said before, some day this may be practical and maybe even desirable in large cities or somewhat densely populated suburbs, but I also see the transition time as quite long.

 

[prof fate]

Look at it like cell phones or internet.
There will be early adopters - people that like/need the latest high tech gadget.
There will fits and starts and failures - look at smart phones today compared to all the ideas that came before - PDA's, push to talk phones that worked like walki talkies.

Does everyone have a smart phone today? no. 230 out of 320 million do, and factoring how many kids or old people there are, that's almost every adult I'd say.
I gave up my landline years ago - long after most of my friends did.
This site Demographics of Mobile Device Ownership and Adoption in the United States says that 95% of americans own a cell phone today. In 2011 35% owned a smartphone, today that's 77%, and a friend last night told me he's been told his flip phone won't work by 3Q this year, so he's gotta get a smart phone. LIke it or not. AFAIK, the gov't isn't forcing him either.

Above site lists phone ownership by age/gender/tyep - ages 18-29? 100% cell phone ownership. So yeah, everyone has one. Unless you're 65+, then it's "only" 85%.

Urban is 96%, rural 91%, with 83% smart in the urban and 65% in rural. Is that an age thing, an economic/social thing, a service availability thing - perhaps a bit of all of that.

When 95% of people have cell phones and 80% have smart phones things change. SOOO much is different now than 20 years ago you don't realize it all.

And so it will be with self driving cars, subscription cars, etc. Fewer teens today WANT to drive. Economically it may make a lot more sense, particularly urban dwellers, to subscribe to uber-like service than spend $500-1000 a month on a car/insurance/parking, etc. We do it for the convenience, the freedom. If there is a cheaper option...well, that may very well be what swings it.

Census wise, 97% of the nation's land is 'rural', but only 19.3% of the population lives there - 60 million people. So 31% % live in 'urban' areas, and 55% live in suburban areas...yeah, that's more than enough for autonomy to work out well. And rural is still losing population to more urban counties.

We being of the tractor-types here we're more rural oriented...so our perspective isn't that of those living in crowded metro areas. I don't like the traffic in cities and avoid rush hour like the plague. It's why I moved outside the city. If I could live ina very dense city where walking was feasible I might consider that - but to have a car in the city? Hells no. Options are beginning to arrive though...and I don't think it will long for them to be adopted.

And NEW USES - when you got a cell phone, or first saw one - if I told you that half of all people would be shopping with their phones...you'd have thought I was nuts. Or use their phoned to get advice while shopping (instore pricing, reviews, phone a friend, etc).
HALF of people under 30 use their phones to find jobs. Indeed, etc.
Dating apps.
Weather, driving directions..
Not to mention camera and all the things you can do with that.

Last car I bought I searched prices while sitting at the saleman's desk waiting for them to 'give me a better deal' - I found one and told them "Match this!" - $700 cheaper than their "$750 under invoice" - car before thought I bought via email, and my tractor was via FB marketplace and email. Stuff you'd never dreamed of 25 years ago.



Watch what 25 year old do with their phones...wow.

So when autonomous vehicles come we'll have a huge revolution, much of it ways we've not yet even thought of.

like your tractor - you get it to do a, b and c. and end up doing 5 more things you never thought of with it.

I don't see viability even approaching 90%...maybe 60% or so a long way down the road. But this is all a moot point once government mandates get involved, which we all know are more dependent on the political winds than on any remote sense of practicality or public demand.
When the government demands that all passenger vehicles need to be electric, self-driving, whatever by a certain date what becomes of those for whom this will never make sense? Or, for that matter to those of us who prefer to drive a "traditional" vehicle (whatever that may mean in the future)? Another choice being taken away from us?

What about trucks? Many of us use them off-road as well as on.

As I've said before, some day this may be practical and maybe even desirable in large cities or somewhat densely populated suburbs, but I also see the transition time as quite long.

 

[Reg]

The issue of heat is "interesting".
Basically the infernal combustion engine makes too much, WAY TOO MUCH, heat.
It is a heat engine, by definition.
It wastes so much heat that it has to have a large waste heat dumping system consisting of a water jacket, pump, hoses and a fluid/air heat exchanger, or "radiator".
OK, so there are air cooled engines that dump excess heat a little more directly, but water cooling is the common design.

As a side effect we can have heat in the vehicle, but it is from surplus heat that shouldn't be generated anyway.

Not difficult to imagine and then design a more efficient system than this.

 

[prof fate]

Yers ago I replaced an old gas boiler with an elec boiler. Everyone said I was nuts.
Well, 60% of the gas went up the chimney as waste heat, and elec is 100% efficient - I saw my heating bills drop by more than half. And elec they say is more costly than natural gas.

Back in auto school I was told a 6 cyl car engine's heat could heat a typical house.

The issue of heat is "interesting".
Basically the infernal combustion engine makes too much, WAY TOO MUCH, heat.
It is a heat engine, by definition.
It wastes so much heat that it has to have a large waste heat dumping system consisting of a water jacket, pump, hoses and a fluid/air heat exchanger, or "radiator".
OK, so there are air cooled engines that dump excess heat a little more directly, but water cooling is the common design.

As a side effect we can have heat in the vehicle, but it is from surplus heat that shouldn't be generated anyway.

Not difficult to imagine and then design a more efficient system than this.

 

[3930dave]

Big picture...... lots to consider.....

COLD WEATHER RANGE LOSS. | Tesla

Tesla obviously knows how much batteries de-rate in the cold. It's a triple whammy..... their performance is lower, they have to protect themselves, AND provide occupancy heat.

Big picture - I'd like to see cold weather performance more accurately detailed by Tesla. Embodied energy - see the references to Pre-Heating in the above link. The amount of electricity required to pre-heat a car to 72F in my climate is non-trivial.

Yes.... you could pre-heat an IC car too, but few modern FI cars require that kind of treatment.

I like efficiency just fine (recently spent about $100 on high-end 120Vac LED bulbs. $100 is not a lot of money to some people; it is to me.), but only when there are no significant collateral trade-offs.

I understand a bit about thermodynamics. While IC engines have improved a bit in the last 20 years, they do still waste energy in the form of heat..... it just happens that heat is useful and critical for the climate I live in.

Electricity production has inefficiencies too..... plenty of losses in pushing electrons hundreds or thousands of miles.

EV evangelicals like to demonize IC engines. Big Picture...... if you are burning coal to drive an EV.... explain to me how that is the moral high-ground ?

At the same time..... I understand how a locomotive is designed.... I like electric motors just fine ......

Rgds, D.

 

[prof fate]

Loco's need torque to move and elec motors have all their torque available at every rpm.

Back in the late 70s toyota made a gas-generator car that got 100mpg..I never quite understood why it didn't spread farther. the chevy volt is basically this. Best of both worlds I'd think.

If you only need 15hp to cruise along the hiway then run off battery or small genset. On hills and accell draw power from the battery bank. You may need 100hp elec motor, no transmission (offset battery weight and cost), a small genset should be able to keep you charged up.

My brain has yet to understand electricity/batteries/charge/discharge - 750w to a hp is about as far as I can comprehend. If I could understand it maybe I could make an elec car as above or as least understand if it's possible or not.

I know my 1700w/120v genset uses a gallon of gas for 10 hours of use.
My car, at say 35mph 30mpg will use 12 gallons in 10 hours.
What I can't figure, for lack of comprehension, is what elec motor/battery I need to replace the eng/trans with elec power. Even if the genset has to triple in size I think I'm ahead

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Loco's need torque to move and elec motors have all their torque available at every rpm.

Back in the late 70s toyota made a gas-generator car that got 100mpg..I never quite understood why it didn't spread farther. the chevy volt is basically this. Best of both worlds I'd think.

If you only need 15hp to cruise along the hiway then run off battery or small genset. On hills and accell draw power from the battery bank. You may need 100hp elec motor, no transmission (offset battery weight and cost), a small genset should be able to keep you charged up.

My brain has yet to understand electricity/batteries/charge/discharge - 750w to a hp is about as far as I can comprehend. If I could understand it maybe I could make an elec car as above or as least understand if it's possible or not.

I know my 1700w/120v genset uses a gallon of gas for 10 hours of use.
My car, at say 35mph 30mpg will use 12 gallons in 10 hours.
What I can't figure, for lack of comprehension, is what elec motor/battery I need to replace the eng/trans with elec power. Even if the genset has to triple in size I think I'm ahead

I think many of us grew up in an era where the car was not just a way of travel but more or less an extension of our egos/manhood. Car makers did not want to leave the IC engine that has been a good cash cow for them when gas was $0.25 per gallon. When I see a car with the windows shaking at a stop light I think of the $10 horse and $20 saddle expression from yesteryear.

Our kids learned to drive in an EV. To be more safe on our hills I found a used EZGO (2006?)with PDS drive system (regen breaking) so that was my start on understanding EV's. The batteries were like 5 years old but we could still travel 25 miles when fully charged which I thought was amazing. We had a 10 mile path of county roads that went past about 10 houses in the middle of no where so it was relative save with a little local traffic. They learned the rules off the road and hand signalling. Being twins and having to swap out drivers when one violated a driving rule or law seemed to keep their focus. A few years later both pasted their driving test in a old 2000 Towncar. Yes I never made life easy for them.

I really want the four motor 600 HP Ford F-150 like they had at a car show back in 2014. We have the most heavy duty F-150 made in 2010 today and I love it and it started out as a $7400 project truck. My 'ego' means I now have more than $7400 in the the truck too. Full LED exterior lighting upgrades has caused my old brain to learn about cars more than in many years.

 

[prof fate]

Thinking of starting with an electric bicycle conversion - amazon sells kits, add battery.
been playing with elec r/c cars, planes and such. lithium ion is awesome stuff.

then move to say, a miata elec conversion. Lots to learn before I can that.

tempted to make an elec lawn mower - no speed control needed...simple math and googling seems it's possible and not that expensive using old lead acid batteries. Need what, 2-3 hours run time? Piece of cake.

The bike is easier, more proven, more useful - I can use it as real transportation.

I think many of us grew up in an era where the car was not just a way of travel but more or less an extension of our egos/manhood. Car makers did not want to leave the IC engine that has been a good cash cow for them when gas was $0.25 per gallon. When I see a car with the windows shaking at a stop light I think of the $10 horse and $20 saddle expression from yesteryear.

Our kids learned to drive in an EV. To be more safe on our hills I found a used EZGO (2006?)with PDS drive system (regen breaking) so that was my start on understanding EV's. The batteries were like 5 years old but we could still travel 25 miles when fully charged which I thought was amazing. We had a 10 mile path of county roads that went past about 10 houses in the middle of no where so it was relative save with a little local traffic. They learned the rules off the road and hand signalling. Being twins and having to swap out drivers when one violated a driving rule or law seemed to keep their focus. A few years later both pasted their driving test in a old 2000 Towncar. Yes I never made life easy for them.

I really want the four motor 600 HP Ford F-150 like they had at a car show back in 2014. We have the most heavy duty F-150 made in 2010 today and I love it and it started out as a $7400 project truck. My 'ego' means I now have more than $7400 in the the truck too. Full LED exterior lighting upgrades has caused my old brain to learn about cars more than in many years.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Thinking of starting with an electric bicycle conversion - amazon sells kits, add battery.
been playing with elec r/c cars, planes and such. lithium ion is awesome stuff.

then move to say, a miata elec conversion. Lots to learn before I can that.

tempted to make an elec lawn mower - no speed control needed...simple math and googling seems it's possible and not that expensive using old lead acid batteries. Need what, 2-3 hours run time? Piece of cake.

The bike is easier, more proven, more useful - I can use it as real transportation.

Keep us updated on your EV projects.

 

[3930dave]

Loco's need torque to move and elec motors have all their torque available at every rpm.

Back in the late 70s toyota made a gas-generator car that got 100mpg..I never quite understood why it didn't spread farther. the chevy volt is basically this. Best of both worlds I'd think.

If you only need 15hp to cruise along the hiway then run off battery or small genset. On hills and accell draw power from the battery bank. You may need 100hp elec motor, no transmission (offset battery weight and cost), a small genset should be able to keep you charged up.

My brain has yet to understand electricity/batteries/charge/discharge - 750w to a hp is about as far as I can comprehend. If I could understand it maybe I could make an elec car as above or as least understand if it's possible or not.

I know my 1700w/120v genset uses a gallon of gas for 10 hours of use.
My car, at say 35mph 30mpg will use 12 gallons in 10 hours.
What I can't figure, for lack of comprehension, is what elec motor/battery I need to replace the eng/trans with elec power. Even if the genset has to triple in size I think I'm ahead

Somebody back when put together a small kubota diesel/electric hybrid truck. No, it wouldn't tow 20k#, but as a small runabout it did fine, and got way better fuel mileage than most street motorcycles do.

You'll often see military prototypes today, that are diesel/electric hybrids.... nice combo. In a better universe, we'd have Jetta hybrid diesels today.

Short of hydrogen, the next best IC option is natgas. Buddy of mine had a factory dual fuel F150 natgas - best truck he's ever had, for fueling cost.

Lots of good technical options out there...... too bad we are not allowed to have most of them.....

Rgds, D.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Back in the late 70s toyota made a gas-generator car that got 100mpg..I never quite understood why it didn't spread farther. the chevy volt is basically this. Best of both worlds I'd think.

The street version is known as the "Prius."

 

[3930dave]

My kind of 100 mpg.....

Build Your Own Car That Gets 1 Miles Per Gallon | MOTHER EARTH NEWS

Rgds, D.

 

[prof fate]

The street version is known as the "Prius."

the prius, like the chevy volt, can and do drive the wheels with the gas engine as well as elec motor.

So not truly a genset/battery/motor arrangement.

 

[prof fate]

My kind of 100 mpg.....

Build Your Own Car That Gets 1 Miles Per Gallon | MOTHER EARTH NEWS

Rgds, D.

I remember this from way back...Similar to the mother earth news car.
Urba Centurion: Building Your Own 128-MPG 197s Diesel Sports Car

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I remember this from way back...Similar to the mother earth news car.
Urba Centurion: Building Your Own 128-MPG 197s Diesel Sports Car

So it could drive a 8KW generator just fine. Interesting set up but not simple I am sure as was stated.