New Construction HVAC decisions. Geothermal vs. alternatives with upgraded envelope.

[MGH PA]

Am I gathering it correct that you're looking at geo, but not do radiant floor heat? I understand the radiant heat is a little more expensive (labor cost is a little higher), but with new construction, I'd value the radiant heat over geo. I was lucky and learned about radiant heat before we built. Definitely one of the best aspects of my house. You'll save money long term as you will not set your heat as high and it's more efficient.

It's too expensive to have the Geo unit powering the radiant. I'm getting quotes between $10k + to add radiant to the geo system and that doesn't include the insulation.

 

[MGH PA]

We will probably do duracermaic in the bathrooms to avoid the cold foot problem.

 

[Guidshir]

From the standpoint of a really efficient home, how does a wood stove not poke holes in the envelope?

 

[4570Man]

From the standpoint of a really efficient home, how does a wood stove not poke holes in the envelope?

Some of the better stoves draw outside air for combustion.

 

[deezler]

From the standpoint of a really efficient home, how does a wood stove not poke holes in the envelope?

Huh? You mean a single, insulated chimney box going through the roof? Pretty negligible. You close the flue/damper/stove-intake when not using, for minimal draft.
But whenever it's very cold.... you typically have a fire going and the whole assembly radiates heat.

MGH, I hear you on not wanting to constantly do firewood work. But I have found that I really only need to devote 8-10 days a year outside to cutting and splitting, which my son like to help me with. And then about every other weekend, I have to bring over a new pallet or crate of firewood (using my tractor, of course) to the screen porch door and spend ~20 minutes to carry and stack it right by my patio door. It's really not much time in the grand scheme of things, for nearly free heat. My wife also like to keep the house over 70f, so she's eager to light fires and keep them going. I enjoy it, but recognize it's not for everyone.

 

[Sigarms]

I think my HVAC guy used the old school tip. That's why I ended up with 8 tons when I needed 4-5 at most.

THIS is why you always do a load to verify.

For retrofit, homeowners will generally tell you they don't have a issue with their current system. Charge them money to do the job, and then all of a sudden they will let you know if they had a problem becuase if they bought the house used, any issues they've always put up with BUT after spending money with you they feel like they deserve better.

More times than not on a new construction job, the capacity size of the equipment has been changed because the homeowner decided to change insulation in the home. This generally ONLY happens when the homeowner is actually talking to the HVAC sub. I find it amazing how many GC's won't let the homeowner talk to the subs. Homeowner tells the GC something, the GC is supposed to tell the sub. Ever play that game in kindergarden where you whisper something into someone elses ear and they do the same... Same thing happens when we're adults. Lack of communication.

 

[MGH PA]

THIS is why you always do a load to verify.

For retrofit, homeowners will generally tell you they don't have a issue with their current system. Charge them money to do the job, and then all of a sudden they will let you know if they had a problem becuase if they bought the house used, any issues they've always put up with BUT after spending money with you they feel like they deserve better.

More times than not on a new construction job, the capacity size of the equipment has been changed because the homeowner decided to change insulation in the home. This generally ONLY happens when the homeowner is actually talking to the HVAC sub. I find it amazing how many GC's won't let the homeowner talk to the subs. Homeowner tells the GC something, the GC is supposed to tell the sub. Ever play that game in kindergarden where you whisper something into someone elses ear and they do the same... Same thing happens when we're adults. Lack of communication.

Luckily my GC is letting me pick my subs, so I'm doing all of the research, quotes, etc.

 

[EddieWalker]

Luckily my GC is letting me pick my subs, so I'm doing all of the research, quotes, etc.

Why are you paying for a GC when you are doing his job?

 

[Sigarms]

Luckily my GC is letting me pick my subs, so I'm doing all of the research, quotes, etc.

Seems you have a good GC.

I've seen submittals put out by engineers that the end user has abssolutely NO CLUE what they're getting.

Recently had a local county animal shelter spec'ing out 30k for a new building on HVAC using ductless mini splits. Pure sheer stupidity. Luckily I knew the contractor and common sense prevailed.

 

[deezler]

Luckily my GC is letting me pick my subs, so I'm doing all of the research, quotes, etc.

Wait, what is the point of having a GC if you have to do all the work!?!? Lol. This exact scenario you mention is the only reason WHY I hired a contractor.

 

[EddieWalker]

Makes sense. I was going to suggest hiring a project manager instead of paying GC fees, but if you have to have one, that's that.

 

[Sigarms]

Well for one, I cannot act as my own GC here due to bank regulations, and I do nothave enough money to front this project forgoing the lending institutions all together.

Secondly, her is still doing all of the scheduling, draws, etc. Plus he is doing electrical, plumbing, and framing/drywall. I am only picking subs for things I want more control over (HVAC, well, septic, tile, countertops, and cabinets...using Amish for the latter).

We will be picking everything out. I aminstalling all of the flooring as well. It is a mix bag build. I like some control. Just the way I am.

I wish more people were like you. Always found if perplexing that in a 500k house they put the cheapest t-stat they can find on the wall.

 

[MGH PA]

What happened to my last post? :anyone:

 

[MGH PA]

Side question (related). Would it be recommended to zone my system between basement and first floor? It sounds like most of the contractors recommended having everything on one zone, and if going more than one zone, keeping it broken up across the main living floor (maybe one zone for the living area, and one for the bedrooms). Any logic to NOT having a zone for the basement?

Thanks.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I used 2 units to zone my house.

 

[Raspy]

Side question (related). Would it be recommended to zone my system between basement and first floor? It sounds like most of the contractors recommended having everything on one zone, and if going more than one zone, keeping it broken up across the main living floor (maybe one zone for the living area, and one for the bedrooms). Any logic to NOT having a zone for the basement?

Thanks.

Always zone your system into the living areas. You already mentioned the Master bedroom as one because you want it cooler for sleeping. Definitely, absolutely zone the different floors separately. And try to have a mechanical separation between the two floors instead of simply an open stairwell. Otherwise you'll be overheating the upper floor trying to make the lower comfortable. Usually, forced air guys will have far fewer zones than you might have with radiant. Aside from heating and cooling areas you might not be using, with forced air, and not enough zones, you'll be mixing air from all over the house and wearing shoes to avoid the cold floors.

You previously mentioned using non-ceramic tiles so they would not feel too cold. I think that is a mistake, but if you want to go that route, look into cork tiles.

As far as selecting your subs, good idea. As a sub, I always wanted to talk to the homeowner and could always give them a better system because of it. Many times, the homeowners would work with me directly, if they met me first, instead of going through the general, but that can cause some friction. Sometimes I never met the owners from start to finish and I always felt they got less than they could have.

 

[NorTracNY]

It's too expensive to have the Geo unit powering the radiant. I'm getting quotes between $10k + to add radiant to the geo system and that doesn't include the insulation.

I'm not sure what your end goal is. I would have likely done both when I built if I was up on geo at the time. Radiant you can't add later, but geo you can. If I remember, you don't have NG, so geo will help with the bills, but so will radiant. For someone walking into and living in your house, they will never notice you have geo. They will notice radiant floor heating. I know there's tons going into you decision process, but if you haven't lived in a home with radiant heating you might want to visit someone that has it. It will save money as will geo.

We looked at geo, but with NG the payback is next to never. The savings on the removal of NG will be lost on the increased electrical. It will actually double our electric needs. We are currently covered with solar, but doubling the solar would really be tough to do.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I wish more people were like you. Always found if perplexing that in a 500k house they put the cheapest t-stat they can find on the wall.

Yea, me too.

 

[NorTracNY]

Isn't zoning between floors a given!? I have a ranch, so I'm not certain, but it sounds very strange that the contractors are not recommending it. I know my parents separated into basement, first floor, and bedrooms. You might also want to watch out for zoning a room with south facing windows with other rooms. My parents have one bedroom that is always MUCH warmer because it has South facing windows, but the thermostat is in another room.

 

[Sigarms]

Any logic to NOT having a zone for the basement?

Thanks.

No.

I'd find a new HVAC guy that wants to do it right.

Talked with 2 other guys I trust with Geo and their opinion is the same as mine... for what your spending, trying to do it right, two seperate systems, one for each floor. Since you're already digging and have to do the ductwork, price wise, for what you get in return, worth the investment...

I moved into my house 14 years ago, house was bulit in 1987. 3 HVAC systems, one system per each floor. When I first moved here, I probably would of went zoning if I did the house from scratch on my end for at least 2 floors. Now? I'm grateful I have one system per each floor, no complaints. Added my father is in the basement and he likes it a lot warmer than the rest of us, greatful it's not zoned (and the basement and first floor is what I would of zoned together).