Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor?

[art]

Get to the parts break down of the hydraulics for the kubota backhoe. Best solution as going through more valves just keeps cutting away from what you might be able to do!

 

[Michael In Tennessee]

I think we all need to sit back and get back down to basics. Poor Cat is probably so overwhelmed with information on a subject he does not understand to begin with, that he cannot think straight. I am probably as guilty as anybody with providing information that does not bear on his basic problem. With long discourses he probably gets lost in the first couple sentences.

I agree. He is likely overwhelmed.

As I have asked twice now and he as never provided an answer to the basic question: What BH are you trying to connect; Kubota companion to his L, some brand after market frame mount, or 3 point hitch unit. That probably creates 3 different solutions. One of his posts has a BH piping diagram that could allude to an after market BH.

I'm pretty certain it is a 3 pt hitch mounted aftermarket BH. If he had the skills to attach a sub-frame, I'd bet he has the skills to do the hydraulics.

From what I know about Kubota all their BHs have a return to tank (T) line from its valve stack.

And you would be incorrect. Just look up any video on how to remove a Kubota BH. You will see two lines only. I got one in my shop. That is just the way it is. My initial understanding of open center hydraulics is that any valve stack should have return to tank. But, it doesn't seem to hold true. Look at any 3rd function kit. No tank line. Not, at least, on tractors the size of what most of us seem to have.

Once he answers that question, we can probably provide a direct to that unit definitive answer. Pictures and diagrams always help more than words as long as they deal with his specific brands and models.

Ron

Also agree. We need more info from the OP.

Doesn't Kubota make a kit for this? Perhaps the dealer's not understanding what it is that you want.

When I go on Kubota's build tool and add a backhoe to a 4060 it adds two packages, one of which sounds line a mount. The other ($300 something) might be the hydraulic connection.

I just went back and looked at my build sheet. I have no separate kit for hydraulics. Just the Hoe and the frame kit. You are probably right though on the 4060. That said, the necessary hydraulics support is two hoses, two disconnects and a mounting bracket (which the dealer installed wrong ) You can buy the hoses and QDs for maybe $75 - $100. A bracket to keep the mess out of the 3 pt parts would be a simple thing to cobble together.

Again, the OP needs to come back and help us help him.

 

[Fallon]

Half the problem is not knowing what you dont know. Figuring out what you are ignorant about & some key terms is the first step to learning. It's really hard to research & learn when you dont know where to start or what key terms to Google or otherwise dig into.

I'm betting he'll be back after some digging & learning.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Micheal,


Quote Originally Posted by Tractor Seabee View Post

From what I know about Kubota all their BHs have a return to tank (T) line from its valve stack.

And you would be incorrect. Just look up any video on how to remove a Kubota BH. You will see two lines only. I got one in my shop. That is just the way it is. My initial understanding of open center hydraulics is that any valve stack should have return to tank. But, it doesn't seem to hold true. Look at any 3rd function kit. No tank line. Not, at least, on tractors the size of what most of us seem to have.

Notice that I limited my comment to what I think I know. I am probably wrong on some models.

Back again to basics: All hydraulic circuits have two primary lines. Power from the pump (normally ID as "P")The other returns fluid back to the sump (tank) the pump draws from (normally ID as "T"). All the intermediate piping and valves operate the functions. On open center circuits like we are discussing; Power fluid moving from valve stack to valve stack have a line between them to carry that fluid through the system and ultimately to the tank.

To determine the flow pattern and the intermediate components requires diagrams of both the tractor system and connected attachments. Again, discussing a tractor model other than the one the OP has just adds to the confusion.

I have failed to down load the hydraulic diagram of the L the OP provided and peruse its details. Will try to that tonight to be ready for his next post. For now I am off line till his next post.

Ron

 

[Cat_Driver]

Yes for all those that observed me being overwhelmed - spot on.
Combimed with the fact that even the local professionals I talked to are unhelpful of they themseved don't understand.
At the moment it's hard to determine which port or hose to tap into, so I do nothing.
I don't think throwing $1,400.00 at it will solve the problem either.

Any Kubota guys know where these hoses come from. I was thinking of using a T fitting here wit quick disconnects to the back of the tractor.

 

[Cat_Driver]

Half the problem is not knowing what you dont know. Figuring out what you are ignorant about & some key terms is the first step to learning. It's really hard to research & learn when you dont know where to start or what key terms to Google or otherwise dig into.

I'm betting he'll be back after some digging & learning.

Your right. Doing a lot of chin rubbing and laying under the tractor. BUT because I have (5) things using gydraulics 1) loader arms 2) loader bucket 3) rear remote #1 4) Rear Remote #2 5) Grappler plus all the hydrstat lines, rear three point lift tubes.
You see the mess of ins and out I have under this tractor it looks like a plumbers nightmare PLUS it's crowded as heck under there.
Since I'm not 100% sure what to disconnect I'm not going to disconnect anything.

Yes I'm now undertsand the concept of OPEN hydraulics I need to come in 100% ( THEN THE BACKHOE CONTROLS THE IN AND OUT) then I need 100% OUT to the tank. With not valve between the In and backhoe or between the OUT of the backhhoe.

I did call a guy who said he works on tractors to come look at it, but even he didn't seem to get the concept that the valve I have does not allow for fluid to return. Seems only you guys here undertsand and dealers and mechanics don't undertsand.

 

[Cat_Driver]

I agree. He is likely overwhelmed.



I'm pretty certain it is a 3 pt hitch mounted aftermarket BH. If he had the skills to attach a sub-frame, I'd bet he has the skills to do the hydraulics.



And you would be incorrect. Just look up any video on how to remove a Kubota BH. You will see two lines only. I got one in my shop. That is just the way it is. My initial understanding of open center hydraulics is that any valve stack should have return to tank. But, it doesn't seem to hold true. Look at any 3rd function kit. No tank line. Not, at least, on tractors the size of what most of us seem to have.



Also agree. We need more info from the OP.



I just went back and looked at my build sheet. I have no separate kit for hydraulics. Just the Hoe and the frame kit. You are probably right though on the 4060. That said, the necessary hydraulics support is two hoses, two disconnects and a mounting bracket (which the dealer installed wrong ) You can buy the hoses and QDs for maybe $75 - $100. A bracket to keep the mess out of the 3 pt parts would be a simple thing to cobble together.

Again, the OP needs to come back and help us help him.

Last time I had a Kubota with a Kubota backhoe they had a fram and an EXTERNAL PTO PUMP.
I was going to have a dealer put the same on this one but was quoted nearly 10K - NO THANKS.

The backhoe I got was a Chinese special for 3K delivered to my door. and using it like I did with it freezing
because of the hydraulics not comnnected correctly this backhoe is a BEAST just as good as the Kubota
It has nu sub frame and I understand the pros and cons of a subframe but my soild here is desert sand
or the equivalent to beach sand 100' deep.
I used this how on LOW LOW idle with zero rpms and it did everything I asked of it.....well exept feeezibg up
because their is no return of fluid, but while working it's amaging and stable with the outriggers down.

Yes I still can get a $1,100.00 Kubota PTO pump but why when the tractor pump handles the backhoe just fine.

BUT, if I can't find an appropriate place to tap into the hydraulics then that's the easy and exspensive way out.

Either way I'm still saving may thousands of dollars for something that will only he used now and
again to repair irrigation lines.

 

[LouNY]

I do not understand why your hoe would not operate on one of your rear remotes, it should have and it should not be freezing up.
As one of the earlier posters replied try picking up pressure from one of your rear remotes feeding your back hoe take the return to tank and try it going to your fill port.
I wouldn't recommend that as the final solution but it would allow you to verify that everything is working right, if it does then find a better location to tie the return into.
Your rear remotes are separate from your loader control valves aren't they?
If it has a regeneration function such as some bucket dump valves do it would not work.

 

[aczlan]

Yes for all those that observed me being overwhelmed - spot on.
Combimed with the fact that even the local professionals I talked to are unhelpful of they themseved don't understand.
At the moment it's hard to determine which port or hose to tap into, so I do nothing.
I don't think throwing $1,400.00 at it will solve the problem either.

Any Kubota guys know where these hoses come from. I was thinking of using a T fitting here wit quick disconnects to the back of the tractor.
View attachment 596239View attachment 596239

Are those pictures of the hydraulic lines going to/from your loader? If so, can you post a picture of where the lines go into the valve?

Aaron Z

 

[ericm979]

I think the parts for kit B22501 are the intake and outflow hoses on the tractor side of the backhoe. parts 7K500-64830 and 7K500-64850 are the two hoses. You'll need the connectors too of course but you don't need the Kubota ones, decent 1/2" ag connectors are like $20 a set. The parts fiche says s/n break so those may not be the right versions for your tractor but a dealer should be able to handle it.. Or Messicks' parts dept.

Kubota BH92 (BKHOE L32 / 35 / 39 / 42 / 44 / 47 / 5 / 52 / 574) Parts Diagrams, look for B22501 under hydraulic system. It even show what the hoses connect to (as isolated parts). One looks like the loader valve.

I don't understand why your dealer can't figure this out.

 

[Michael In Tennessee]

Since you have a grapple (3rd function), you want to tap in after that. That also makes identifying the proper hoses easier. Excluding the grapple lines, you only have one input and one output hose. The input comes from the FEL valve and the output goes to the next thing in line, which I presume is the power beyond port on the manifold block under the right floorboard. Pretty easy to work with.

As I previously mentioned, I'd not go through the rear remotes. Just add a service loop from your existing 3rd function, to the back of the tractor returning to the manifold block with a set of quick disconnects in the rear.

Please provide more info on the implements. Users manuals, specs, whatever. If the backhoe can output can withstand line pressure, the solution I propose works. If they specifically say you must return to tank instead of power beyond, then an alternate solution is required. I have no clue yet on the trencher as you have provided no information on its function. Perhaps all it needs is to use the rear remotes as currently defined.



Above, Eric does show the proper Kubota OEM hoses and fittings, but it is an expensive way to get to your needed result assuming your implements have their own valves (like the backhoe).

 

[WranglerX]

I know this is almost purely Kabota.... But have same issues with my MF GC 1715 with no PB..... Sales brochure said PB was available and give part number... Dealer and corporate are in the dark!......

Dale

 

[Michael In Tennessee]

I know this is almost purely Kabota.... But have same issues with my MF GC 1715 with no PB..... Sales brochure said PB was available and give part number... Dealer and corporate are in the dark!......

Dale

Post a new thread and supply pictures of FEL valve and whatever else you think is important.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Cat, if the L tractor diagram you posted is the one for your tractor; I think I have it figured out. If not, don't bother reading the rest of this. and get the right WSM. The rear remotes are factory installed items and the return to tank is incorporated in the valve stack that operates them. You need to find out if one is a detent type. If not that is why all the discussion about bungee cord to keep the valve open.

First check to see if one is detent type and use that and you are home clear just keep it in detent one feeding the outlet providing power on that circuit. The outlet next to it is the return. Your owners manual or the WSM should have a diagram showing the outlets and which ones are for what.

If you do not have a remote w/detent you will have to resort to the bungee cord idea or consider an alternate valve piping arrangement.

Is there a brand name and part number on the remote valves?

I am surprised Messicks was not of help, they weigh in often when things get bogged down. Now that you know better how to discuss this I would try their service manager again. Make sure you have the model of your tractor and its age. Mention that the closest dealers shop has been of no help as why you are contacting them. Explain you have a two hose BH you are trying to connect. Also indicate you will buy any parts you need from them. They will know if one of the valves has one or more detent positions. Actually you should be able to tell as the lever will stay in one position other than center. At least get the WSM if you do not have one. Get a digital copy if they have them.

Feel free to contact me as personal in the My Home section of the Forum page.

Ron

 

[WranglerX]

Post a new thread and supply pictures of FEL valve and whatever else you think is important.

Already asked some questions in MF section and here in Hydraulics and the seems to be a fog or lack of knowledge....

UPDATE...

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/409967-help-mf-gc-1705-1720-a.html

Dale

 

[Cat_Driver]

Cat, if the L tractor diagram you posted is the one for your tractor; I think I have it figured out. If not, don't bother reading the rest of this. and get the right WSM. The rear remotes are factory installed items and the return to tank is incorporated in the valve stack that operates them. You need to find out if one is a detent type. If not that is why all the discussion about bungee cord to keep the valve open.

First check to see if one is detent type and use that and you are home clear just keep it in detent one feeding the outlet providing power on that circuit. The outlet next to it is the return. Your owners manual or the WSM should have a diagram showing the outlets and which ones are for what.

If you do not have a remote w/detent you will have to resort to the bungee cord idea or consider an alternate valve piping arrangement.

Is there a brand name and part number on the remote valves?

I am surprised Messicks was not of help, they weigh in often when things get bogged down. Now that you know better how to discuss this I would try their service manager again. Make sure you have the model of your tractor and its age. Mention that the closest dealers shop has been of no help as why you are contacting them. Explain you have a two hose BH you are trying to connect. Also indicate you will buy any parts you need from them. They will know if one of the valves has one or more detent positions. Actually you should be able to tell as the lever will stay in one position other than center. At least get the WSM if you do not have one. Get a digital copy if they have them.

Feel free to contact me as personal in the My Home section of the Forum page.

Ron

Sorry all for the long delay, but I've exhausted all my options with trying to get "professional" help. Seems with a great economy, everyone is too busy to care about customers any more. After several dealers not even returning phone calls after several calls. Then I spent time talking to a mobile mechanic who talked a pretty good line until he never showed up for his appointment. I've never experienced suck pathetic service from many businesses as to knowledge and even common courtesy.

So as of this date I purchased a external Prince PTO hydraulic pump and am in the middle of trying to mke that work.

Funny how I got better and more professsional help here than in sever businesses who job it is to cater to customers.

Thanks all, you helpd me from making some huge mistakes.

 

[Cat_Driver]

Are those pictures of the hydraulic lines going to/from your loader? If so, can you post a picture of where the lines go into the valve?

Aaron Z

Aaron I tried putting in a T there and run the backhoe and it was a fail. I don't know what those were for because they wouldn't even move the backhoe arm. I gave in and bought an external hydraulic PTO.

 

[Cat_Driver]

Michael you are AMAZING, but because the tractor has a cab following the hoses or even trying to find ports is miserable.
I tried using a T on two side by side hoses expecting one to be IN and the outher OUT, but they didn't even budge the backhoe.

Here's one thing that was different learning from you guys here.
I plugged into the rear remotes AGAIN, but this time I had teh wife only
engage the remote 3/4 of the way NOT all the way open and that seemed to work better
but still froze the system until I reversed the remote and then engaged again.

The remote works fine on grader box, and other rear equipment that need the remotes so the
remotes are good, just not good for a backhow.

I threw in the towel and bought a Prince PTO hydraulic PTO and will get some hoses
converted.

Wish me luck and I owe you a beer.

 

[aczlan]

Aaron I tried putting in a T there and run the backhoe and it was a fail. I don't know what those were for because they wouldn't even move the backhoe arm. I gave in and bought an external hydraulic PTO.

Ah, sorry to hear that you have had such bad luck. Putting a tee in won't work as it's an open center hydraulic system, fluid can flow in a loop from one valve to the next as long as you aren't moving the valves.
In your picture, one line is probably the output from pump to the loader valve, the other is probably the output from the loader valve going back to the 3 point hitch and/or your rear remote(s).
If you disconnect the line that has the fluid leaving the loader valve and going to the 3 point, you can put your backhoe lines there (loader valve out to backhoe valve in. Backhoe valve out to 3 point in).
That way the fluid flows from the pump to the loader valve, to the backhoe valve, to the rear remote (if equipped), to the 3 point valve, to the transmission sump.
If you put a tee in there, it will take the easier of the two paths every time and you will not accomplish any work.

Aaron Z

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Sorry to hear you gave up on your L system. There is a simple solution w/o buying a bunch of new stuff. K puts BHs on the Ls all the time. Any reputable K shop knows how to do that chore as the BHs are dealer installed usually unless special ordered. Wish I was closer; pay my way down there and we can figure it out. Do you now have the right manual or decided the one you have is the right one. In hind sight I wish I had thought to tell you to get the K regional rep in the act. I am sure they have a tech bulletin for dealers to show how to do it right. The bungee cord is not the factory solution.

I did look at the diagram again, alas non of the three valves have a detent position. On most valves a detent can be retrofitted into a valve. You would probably have to go to the valve manufacturer for that info and parts. K is probably no help because they want to sell their BH. To adapt the AM BH it would need to have a valve assembly that is or can be made a power beyond valve. Then the connection would entail 3 hoses.

All too late now. But others contemplating this procedure may be interested. Bottom line: have a remote valve that has a detentm or get the BH w/a PB valve system.

Ron