Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor?

   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor? #21  
I found this in the manual so it goes AGAINST all the bungee talk....


A Do not hold the lever in the "REARWARD" or "FORWARD" position once the remote cylinder has reached the end of the stroke, as this will cause oil to flow through the relief valve. Forcing oil through the relief valve for extended periods will overheat the oil.
A Whenusingthetractorhydraulicsystemtopowerfront loader, do not operate boom and bucket cylinders simultaneously.
Holding a valve open normally causes the pressure relief valve to kick in. That heats up oil very quickly & is a problem. If it's just going through the valve, through the backhoe valve then back to the tank it wont cause the relief valve to kick in. There wouldnt be any more restrictions using a bungeed valve than the backhoe being plumbed into the power beyond loop. Restrictions & overheating the oil are what the wording in the manual is trying to prevent.
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor? #22  
I found this in the manual so it goes AGAINST all the bungee talk....


A Do not hold the lever in the "REARWARD" or "FORWARD" position once the remote cylinder has reached the end of the stroke, as this will cause oil to flow through the relief valve. Forcing oil through the relief valve for extended periods will overheat the oil.
A Whenusingthetractorhydraulicsystemtopowerfront loader, do not operate boom and bucket cylinders simultaneously.

NO, no it doesn't, again you are confusing apples and oranges. OF COURSE you would not hold a remote valve open when it is looking into a cylinder as the cylinder would fill with fluid, pressure would increase until the relief valve opens. If the relief valve did not open, then your hydraulic pump would explode, or "grenade" as sometimes said. THIS IS NOT the same thing as using a remote valve to send fluid to a backhoe held open with a bungee cord which will when the backhoe valves are closed will just send the fluid back to the reservoir. Pressure does not build in this scenario as the fluid has some place to go. Thru the valve in the backhoe and then back into the reservoir or also called the "tank" which is the transmission of your tractor.

Lets start with the basics. Hydraulic pumps do not "make pressure" they "make flow". The hydraulic pump in your tractor is making a flow of hydraulic fluid, but when it comes out of the pump it does not have any appreciable pressure until it encounters something that resist the flow of fluid. The first thing it encounters on its journey back to the tank or reservoir is likely the FEL valve. Unless one of the valves on the loader is operated, the fluid just flows out of the valve thru the power beyond port.

Then next thing this stream of fluid encounters still flowing on its way back to the tank is the first of several remote valves. Again if the valves are not operated, the fluid flows on to the 3 point valve and then it dumps into the tank. The pump is constantly sucking fluid from the tank thru the suction filter and passing it out the "pressure" port to start this fluid journey all over again. I don't know the fluid flow specifications for your tractor, but you can look them up, but it will be many gallons per minute of fluid flow. BUT as long as no valves divert this fluid flow, there will be no appreciable pressure in the system. This is called an open center system. Fluid is flowing all the time thru all the valves in series but no appreciable pressure is developed.

This residual pressure will Usually be less than 100 lbs. And only because there is some resistance from all the hoses, valves and fittings. NOW, how does the cylinders do any work if this pressure in the system is at less than 100 lbs?

Here is how: As soon as you divert the fluid flow from this "normal" path from pump back to the tank then pressure builds rapidly in that circuit. Lets say you did operate that remote valve and divert flow into the bore of a cylinder extending the piston. The pressure builds rapidly in the cylinder and the piston starts to move, pushing any load the piston is attached to. This pressure can build to the point if the load does not move or the piston reaches the end of its stroke the pressure will build to the point that the relief valve on the pump will open. If for any reason this relief valve does not open, then the pump will explode or the engine will die trying to turn the pump or something will "give".

This is catastrophic failure. Of course normally the relief valve opens. But this is still a restriction in the oil flow and the relief valve is not meant to have the complete flow rate of the pump flowing over the relief valve for long periods of time as the oil will heat up. If you are a uneducated person you would continue to hold this remote valve open and allow the flow to continue in this manner and allow fluid to flow over the relief valve.

You would notice a "funny sound" and the engine will likely lug down just a little, as the oil continues to heat. This is why they caution about holding a valve open after the piston of a cylinder has reached the end of its stroke. As you have sense enough to let it go and it will snap back to neutral and allow the flow to continue on its original journey back to the tank. OF COURSE if it is a detented valve, then it WILL NOT snap back to neutral will it?

THIS IS WHY DETENTED VALVES ARE DANGEROUS FOR UNEDUCATED PERSONS. You might actually send fluid to a cylinder with a detented valve and when it reaches the end of its stroke just let it sit there with the relief valve screaming and the oil heating up. Or if you hold it back with a bungee cord it can do the same thing. OR if you send fluid to a remote that has nothing plugged into it, it will do the same thing. The fluid flow is looking into a "brick wall" in this case, there is no where for the fluid to go so the relief valve opens as long as that valve is held open either by a detent or a bungee cord or just by your uneducated hand.

Of course this is NOT the same thing as using a bungee cord to send fluid to the backhoe valves because the backhoe valves are going to send the fluid on to the tank. Preferably by dumping it into the fill port of the tank for the least amount of restriction. Remember fluid just flows on its merry way, many gallons per minute until it meets a restriction, then pressure develops when the fluid meets a restriction.

I hope this "book" helped some.
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor? #23  
Thank you sir - even more scared now than ever to even touch this thing.
I wante dto avoid the dealer as they are 50 miles away, but all this seems WAY WAY WAY over my head.

You and I are in agreement here. You have to have a basic understanding of how an open center hydraulic system works first, and then you could start this plumbing project. You do not have that basic understanding, I would highly suggest you take it to a competent dealer to have this job done. ALSO, there are plenty of mechanics that are incompetent and do not have a full understanding of these system either. As witnessed some of the cobbled up jobs people come back with. Lets hope your dealer and his mechanics are competent.
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor? #24  
So run the 2nd hose at the back of the tractor fill port by removing the quick disconnect - right?

Many times that is not the best return for your hydraulics,
splashing down and around to the fluid level can aerate your hydraulic fluid.

To the original poster you say your backhoe locks up with the hydraulics continuously applied.
Do you have both connections made on your rear remote valve?
When both lines are connected you should have established your open center flow loop,
fluid should be leaving your remote thru one connector, flowing thru your backhoe valve body,
and returning to your tractor thru the other connector on the same remote.
The only way I could see for it tobome "locked" and require reversing the flow would be if the backhoe was
setup with closed center valves or if a valve is locking into an operated position.
One other issue is possible if your backhoe valve body is set up with a power beyond and
that port is plumbed to your return line and the return port is plugged.
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor? #25  
You and I are in agreement here. You have to have a basic understanding of how an open center hydraulic system works first, and then you could start this plumbing project. You do not have that basic understanding, I would highly suggest you take it to a competent dealer to have this job done. ALSO, there are plenty of mechanics that are incompetent and do not have a full understanding of these system either. As witnessed some of the cobbled up jobs people come back with. Lets hope your dealer and his mechanics are competent.

I'll 2nd k0uas posts. Hydraulics arent rocket science, but do take time & energy to to properly research & understand. My first project adding 3 remotes & TnT to my L3200 took a while. Mostly me reading, learning, finding the limits of my ignorance then learning & pushing those limits further back. The challenge with hydraulics is it's easy to break expensive parts if you screw up. There is also a not insignificant danger of injury due to high pressure leaks. Do yourself a favor & take my word for it & dont Google for photos of hydraulic injection injuries.

Take your time & do the research here on TBN or elsewhere if you have moderate mechanical aptitude. Having a dealer or competent mechanic (who knows hydraulics, not all do) do the work is perfectly fine too. People only have so much time to learn various skills & work on assorted projects.
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor?
  • Thread Starter
#26  
I copied your " book" to my hard drive ans will read and RE-READ until I understand the reams of valuable information.

When I first attemped this I did do as the Kubota dealer said and hand my wife ( HUMAN BUNGEE) hold the valve [OPEN] and the backhow would work then it would freeze up - I think you used the term Hit a brick wall. In order for it again to operate I would have her relese the valve and then engage again for it to come back to life.
Obviously I knew this was not correct.

I again called another dealer who said a DETENTED VALVE is the way to go at a cost of $1,400.00

So the two quick disconnects I have on the back of the tractor you're saying the one quick disconnect port is OPEN when the handle/valve is thrown forward BUT not fluid is going back to the tank as it is only going to the backhoe and not back to the tank. The brick wall method.

I can use the one side of the quickdisconnect to charge the backhow but I need the return from the backhoe to go into the "tank" of the tractor perhaps via a hydraulic T fitting.

What is happening is there is not fluid going back just going ONE WAY
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor?
  • Thread Starter
#27  
You and I are in agreement here. You have to have a basic understanding of how an open center hydraulic system works first, and then you could start this plumbing project. You do not have that basic understanding, I would highly suggest you take it to a competent dealer to have this job done. ALSO, there are plenty of mechanics that are incompetent and do not have a full understanding of these system either. As witnessed some of the cobbled up jobs people come back with. Lets hope your dealer and his mechanics are competent.

"competent dealer " so far you guys are FAR FAR more competent than the two big dealers I spoke with.

One says use a bunger the next wants $1,400.00 to put on a Denent valve and says this "MIGHT" work?

You all here have been beyong gracious with your knowledge and are at least making me sound a little more intelegent when talking to these dealers.

I need to find a dealer that has the combined knowlege of you all here. HA
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor?
  • Thread Starter
#28  
ROGER THAT

Funny how when you get three opinions on soomething that sounds plausable then as you keep digging you get 12 opions on how those opinions are rubbish.

With the help of all the kind souls here ( of course I need to now study the knowledge given till I understand it ) I am a lot better off than I was when this startd.
 
   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor?
  • Thread Starter
#29  
The backhoe was plumbed for a onboard tank and PTO pump, but they said "sure no problem connect it to your tractor"

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   / Why no "Power Beyond" for Kubota tractor? #30  
It sounds like it's not the Kubota BH.

I think Kubota makes a kit that would give you the BH connection. It should be a loop of hose at the back that is connected with male and female connectors. You disconnect it and connect to the male and female on the BH. That puts the BH in the loop. Like what you're doing with having your wife hold the valve open but without the valve and wife.

You can make the same without the kit, if it doesn't exist or is expensive. There should be a line from the remote valve body to the transmission. You'd replace that with a line that has the male and female connectors in it.

BTW I wonder if regen on the remote valve is causing your BH freezing up problem.
 

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