why tym tractors loader lift rateings so much better than jd?

[nards444]

Something we haven't touched on yet is a company's culture - and how that culture affects the final product. I think that's important.
In my experience, a company that does a lot of their own basic manufacturing has a completely different internal culture than one that mostly assembles parts from other suppliers.
rScotty

You know I did work at GM for some time back in the early 2000s, i can relate to an extent building something that ultimately had your companies name on it, there is something there. Now where I waver some is the individual parts and so forth. When i worked there, in our plant I'd say at the time we made roughly half of the parts, some came from small local factories that made say a small bracket, somethings like bolts and nuts came out of bins saying made in mexico. Unless it went to canada the final product was assembled in the US. But with that said I dont know the composition of a GM car in terms of what is made in the states or made out of country. What I can tell you on a car right off the top of my head, interior, glass, tires, most fasteners, or all in all 50% of the components are probably not made by GM maybe more, then engines and trannys are often times made by third parties or out of country, even if the motors are made by GM things like injectors plugs arent.

I dont know where Kubota sits in terms of what they make and don't make, my guess is they actually make a lot less parts then they lead on or you may think. The assembling part probably is much more important in terms of culture than actually component parts combined with overall engineering of that part and how its actually made. Realistically when assembling, its not a hard job, most tasks a novice can complete, its really much more about the QA/QC process.

I am as red blooded as they come and like to buy American because I understand the economic implications. But with that said it is a global economy now and the second truth, is just because it is american made doesnt mean its made better even as much as I hate to admit that.

 

[rScotty]

How would you know by looking at it what parts they made in house and what they outsourced?
...... SNIP .....
.... but outsourcing some components is just the nature of the business. I'll also wager that with Kubota continuing to grow as it is they will continue to look outside the company where it is needed to satisfy business targets.

Of course we can't know whether a part was outsourced by looking at it, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing to be learned by looking.
I'm going to argue that the best designs are refined designs, and that one can tell a refined design by looking.
If so, it is the refinement - rather than who made the part - that makes the difference.

There are certain quality indications that your eye will pick up. Maybe that was what s219 was thinking when he said, " Looking over a Kubota tractor will make this obvious."

Here's why: Whether a part was made in house or outsourced probably makes less difference than who approves the design. specifications, and production of that part.
That because the decision on design is going to be made in house, whether the part itself is or not.
And so far as we know, the knowledge to make that decision best comes from the experience of having made it yourself at one time, experienced the problems, and refined the design.

I think what we have been saying is that a refined design has certain qualities that can be noticed by eye. I'd agree with that.
rScotty

 

[nards444]

Of course we can't know whether a part was outsourced by looking at it, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing to be learned by looking.
I'm going to argue that the best designs are refined designs, and that one can tell a refined design by looking.
If so, it is the refinement - rather than who made the part - that makes the difference.

There are certain quality indications that your eye will pick up. Maybe that was what s219 was thinking when he said, " Looking over a Kubota tractor will make this obvious."

Here's why: Whether a part was made in house or outsourced probably makes less difference than who approves the design. specifications, and production of that part.
That because the decision on design is going to be made in house, whether the part itself is or not.
And so far as we know, the knowledge to make that decision best comes from the experience of having made it yourself at one time, experienced the problems, and refined the design.

I think what we have been saying is that a refined design has certain qualities that can be noticed by eye. I'd agree with that.
rScotty

See I think your back peddling some here. As we now are on some level of agreeing that brand X of any piece equipment doesnt make a lot of its own parts, how much will vary. But even on design, Just because Kubota is approving a part spec its better, thats a large leap of faith there, now one could argue Kubota demands a higher spec then say JD, Mahindra, etc that may be true, but I don't think you'll find any data suggesting such in overall terms.

I think the argument you are trying to make or want to make is Kubota designs, procures(from others) parts, and assembles a superior machine. The argument and their own advertisement from Kubota of being in house on everything or most everything is simply not true. Now Kubota does make a good machine priced right or not I believe that to be fact. Now saying Kubota is the best machine probably more brand pride than any sort of actual fact.

 

[rScotty]

See I think your back peddling some here. As we now are on some level of agreeing that brand X of any piece equipment doesnt make a lot of its own parts, how much will vary. But even on design, Just because Kubota is approving a part spec its better, thats a large leap of faith there, now one could argue Kubota demands a higher spec then sat JG, Mahindra, etc that may be true, but I dont think youll find any data suggesting such in overall terms.

I think the argument you are trying to make or want to make is Kubota designs, procures(from others) parts, and assembles a superior machine. The argument and their own advertisement from Kubota of being house on everything or most everything is simply not true. Now Kubota does make a good machine priced right or not I believe that to be fact. Now saying Kubota is the best machine probably more brand pride than any sort of actual fact.

I think the actual question we were trying to answer is why some tractor brands cost more than others. I think that one factor - a very important factor - is whether the company culture leans towards making things in house or outsourcing. That's not an argument against outsourcing,
It's just my belief that that a company which leans toward in house manufacture will probably be in a better position to accurately define the best quality than one that leans towards outsourcing to reduce cost. Regardless of who makes the part.
That, and that said quality can often be detected by eye in the final product. Quality shows....and costs.
I know it's not an "all or nothing" test.... just one more factor - and does somewhat explain a cost difference.
rScotty

 

[nards444]

I think the actual question we were trying to answer is why some tractor brands cost more than others. I think that one factor - a very important factor - is whether the company culture leans towards making things in house or outsourcing. That's not an argument against outsourcing,
It's just my belief that that a company which leans toward in house manufacture will probably be in a better position to accurately define the best quality than one that leans towards outsourcing to reduce cost. Regardless of who makes the part.
That, and that said quality can often be detected by eye in the final product. Quality shows....and costs.
I know it's not an "all or nothing" test.... just one more factor - and does somewhat explain a cost difference.
rScotty

Quality is often times built into cost, so cost can be a factor. A true determination of two different brands might be to determine cost to build and to go from there. Then again I go to walmart and buy walmart ketchup a buck cheaper than Heinz, is Heinz better ketchup very doubtful. So cost can be a conundrum. You also can look at market share, thats a descent indicator as well, people buying more product of one brand means something, flip side of that is that product being sold more because of service and store front recognition? hard to say, people are also monkey see monkey do, every kid on the playground was wearing Nike airs, so i had to have them, were they better shoes than Adidas, not sure.

Like I said Kubota is great a machine, and in some specs or even some specific whole machines might be the best, overall do they have the best equipment I dont believe that for a min, but I do believe their cost is inflated to what extent again I don't know. But if Im kubotas CEO ill crank them out and sell them at people are paying me why stop.

 

[art]

See I think your back peddling some here. As we now are on some level of agreeing that brand X of any piece equipment doesnt make a lot of its own parts, how much will vary. But even on design, Just because Kubota is approving a part spec its better, thats a large leap of faith there, now one could argue Kubota demands a higher spec then sat JG, Mahindra, etc that may be true, but I dont think youll find any data suggesting such in overall terms.

I think the argument you are trying to make or want to make is Kubota designs, procures(from others) parts, and assembles a superior machine. The argument and their own advertisement from Kubota of being in house on everything or most everything is simply not true. Now Kubota does make a good machine priced right or not I believe that to be fact. Now saying Kubota is the best machine probably more brand pride than any sort of actual fact.

Pride is great but never paid a bill with it! There are differences in how things are built and pride will make it better then the person the person that might be paying the bills! I sell a lot of brands of equipment and some is good and some is not!

 

[s219]

I think y'all are misunderstanding my point. In the compact tractor world there is a range of manufacturer types, and it runs from those who build the whole tractor to those who simply rebrand someone else's machine. In the middle might be brands who make most of the tractor but then contract out to third parties for loaders, backhoes, etc. While Mahindra does make some of their tractors, most of their compact tractors are made by someone else (4-5 different manufacturers by my count) and they contract out for stuff like loaders and backhoes. At the other end of the spectrum is Kubota, who builds all their own compact tractors. There are only a couple companies that are like that. And there are only a couple companies that put their own engine in the tractor, like Kubota.

I think this came up because someone suggested Kubota just threw together tractors with other company's components, but that's not really the case. They are on that other end of the spectrum where they have their hands in most of the stuff that goes into their tractors. As I said above, that is obvious if you take a good look at one of their compact tractors, you'll be hard pressed to find someone else's tag on a major part or component. In contrast, take a look at some other brands and you'll see the engine comes from company A, tractor is assembled by company B, the loader comes from company C, etc... You simply do not see that with Kubota compact tractors in the US market.

It's obvious with a look -- take my L3200 for instance. Kubota makes the frame, body, engine, HST, front loader, backhoe, and the tractor gets a Kubota name on it (7 factors). Use that same scorecard on other compact tractors and you're going to be hard pressed to find a compact that can score 7/7. There are some others, but not many. Doesn't mean one is way better or worse than the other.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Actually Kubota did have Bradco make the backhoe for my loader and a company called H&H makes, or made most of their buckets.

I've been to the Kubota factory in George and saw the bucket building robot myself.

Its an impressive place. Hard to know where every widget comes from, but they where building a heck of a lot more of the product there than i expected to see. I'd say the same thing for most of the factory tour of equipment companies I've been too. There is an impression that many of the parts are commodity items and my experience has not shown that to be true.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I sell a lot of brands of equipment and some is good and some is not!

when your in the line of work that Art and I are, you quickly see that all equipment is not created equal. Somehow that impression is being lost on the internet. Owners of mediocre products will defend its virtues so their personal thinking that they made the right choice stays intact (lots of studies on this) and you end up with a 'everything is good, everyone wins' consensus so no one is offended.

 

[nards444]

when your in the line of work that Art and I are, you quickly see that all equipment is not created equal. Somehow that impression is being lost on the internet. Owners of mediocre products will defend its virtues so their personal thinking that they made the right choice stays intact (lots of studies on this) and you end up with a 'everything is good, everyone wins' consensus so no one is offended.

Very true people justify everything they buy cheap, expensive or in the middle. People buy things for less and think they got a deal and can do the same types of things, some true some not. On the other side of the coin people spend big bucks on something and think I spent top dollar I have the best, sometimes true sometimes not. Truth is probably in the middle at some point.

Also think when you are trying to say what is better or grading it you have to look at use. There's residential use and then commercial, sometimes those do blend. Take for instance I bought a $69.99 homelite weed whacker from home depot 12 years ago to do around my house once a week, thing hasn't skipped a beat. I could have bought the $400 stihl at the time. In this situation is the Stihl a better machine than my $69 homelite, no its not. Now if I was using that weed whacker every day the stihl may have been better