Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?)

/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #21  
The Tier 4 emissions limits below 25.5hp are lax enough that they can be met with traditional mechanical fuel injection and just changes to combustion chamber shape and injection timing. Above 25.5hp the limits are stricter and a DPF or DOC or both is required to meet them. Most but not all of them also have EFI. Above 75hp the limits get tighter again, and that's where they have to use DEF.

There aren't any new tractors over 25.5hp that don't have DOC or DPF. However not all of them do regens.

Unlike the pre-emissions Kubota I had, the Branson's tier 4 exhaust doesn't smoke or stink up the barn when I'm changing implements. It's nice to not be breathing that stuff.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #22  
I generally idle my L4060 at 1500 Rpms, or shut it down if not used for 5-10m.
Generally, but not always. Today I pulled fence posts for several hours, and idled at 600-700 Rpms for most of the time. After almost 400 hours, I average 54 hours between regens, and they have all been uneventful.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #23  
A 40-horsepower tractor will allow you to spin a 72" Rotary Cutter through very tall grass.

15 acres X 3 times per month is 45 acres. For me, a 72" Rotary Cutter would be minimum.



I have a 2013 purchased, Tier IV / DPF tractor. Most of my work is in woods, so it runs at moderate revs.

You can run a Tier IV tractor slow but you cannot regenerate during tractor work at slow rpms. The alternative is to park, then perform an active regeneration, which requires parking, then setting the throttle to 2,200 rpm for around 16 minutes to heat the DPF sufficiently to incinerate accumulated soot. Parked fuel regeneration cost $1.00.

Tier IV emission controls and DPFs began to phase in dealer tractor inventories ten years ago.
Old news in 2019.

Consensus considers DPF problems 90% caused by operators who do not carefully read regeneration procedures in Operator's Manual or refuse to follow the procedures. Many small property users regenerate just once per year. This creates regeneration procedure uncertainty in itself. (Regeneraton occurs every ~~60 engine hours. Non-commercial users average 80 engine hours per year.)

Operator Manuals for DPF equipped compact tractors do a poor job of explaining DPFs and a poor job of explaining regeneration cycles. Most manuals do not inform that filter soot accumulates faster during low weather temperatures, none inform time required for DPF to attain 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, the ignition temperature for diesel soot and none address faster soot accumulation at higher altitudes. It seems to me a DPF temperature readout on electronic instrument panels would address many DPF complaints, as would more descriptive technical writing.



Diesel Particulate Filter supersedes tractor muffler.
At some point in time DPF needs to be replaced.
At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.

Tire wear and tire replacement will cause as many headaches and more expense than DPF for most long term compact tractor owners who read and comprehend their Operator's Manual.

As Jeff has stated MANY times,...... he lives 8 miles from his Kubota dealer.
He relies totally on his Kubota dealer for support.

I live 80 miles from the nearest Kubota dealer.
My 48 HP Kubota is pre-emissions.
I will likely never visit a Kubota dealer.
Kubota parts, from Messick's, are delivered by the very nice UPS man.

The OP does not live near any dealer.
As the OP has already learned about Tier IV, there are many DPF/DEF issues discussed here on TBN.
None of them will ever apply to me.
 
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/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #24  
If choosing between 25 hp no anti pollution gadgets & 35hp w/anti pollution gadgets and same frames I'd go with 25 as the 35 will be derated to just about the same, if you go to 40-45 then it
is different. You can't think old school with these new motors, the lubrication is better now and actually it is easier on them to rev up than to lug them.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #25  
Thx everyone for the sage advice and input so far... I look forward to a lot more.

One thing I failed to mention.... on the cleaning up the atv trails, it is very tight - the CT-28 McCormick can barely make it to the back of the trails... but most sections are very tight and, five of those 15 acres that need to be mowed are at the back of the trails with deer blinds, feeders, etc that I need to mow at least once a month - that's the main reason I was thinking 35-40hp. (to be able to get the jobs done, but still be able to maneuver thru the tight woods to fix the atv trails at the back of the property).

Other:
4 foot tiller
5 foot box blade
5 foot titan brush hog

If buying new consider then a vineyard tractor, they are built narrower w/same hp as others and would suite you to a T
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #26  
If choosing between 25 hp no anti pollution gadgets & 35hp w/anti pollution gadgets and same frames I'd go with 25 as the 35 will be derated to just about the same, if you go to 40-45 then it
is different. You can't think old school with these new motors, the lubrication is better now and actually it is easier on them to rev up than to lug them.

This point really aggravates me. It appears the HP rating is before the emissions system. So the end result is less power to the ground. I don't know what the answer is but I know the current system is very misleading.

Thanks for mentioning that.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?)
  • Thread Starter
#27  
This point really aggravates me. It appears the HP rating is before the emissions system. So the end result is less power to the ground. I don't know what the answer is but I know the current system is very misleading.

Thanks for mentioning that.

Great.... if this is true then the 25hp will provide the same HP as the 35.... great... and I thought I was on my way to the correct decision (MF, Branson, etc). Back to the drawing board.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #28  
There is a lot of interesting ideas here. I don't know much about the current emissions systems, but I don't understand the concerns about running at rated RPMs. I come from a farming background and we always ran tractors (gas or diesel) at the rated speed. In fact, when I was young, my Dad would yell at me for running less than full throttle. These things are intended to run wide open, that's why they are governed to 2500 or 3000 rpm instead of redlined at 6000 rpm. I don't always have mine wide open, but if there is work to be done and the power can be used, the throttle is opened up.

Also, I second the thought of asking about orchard tractors. I'm in the fruit belt and I see lots of 30 to 50 hp tractors that are set up for narrow tracks.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #29  
Great.... if this is true then the 25hp will provide the same HP as the 35.... great... and I thought I was on my way to the correct decision (MF, Branson, etc). Back to the drawing board.


Not so fast. I call "shenanigans" to their claim. Lots of opinionated folks come and go on here, with very little to no hard factual data to back up some rather wild claims. You don't really think *any* tractor manufacturer is going to put out hp claims that can be easily proven false do you? No one will, not any "color" tractor wants that kind of bad publicity.

Any time you see a "wild claim" like this, with no attempt to provide hard proof...

Well, feel free to ignore it at your leisure.

This is the internet afterall.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?)
  • Thread Starter
#30  
Not so fast. I call "shenanigans" to their claim. Lots of opinionated folks come and go on here, with very little to no hard factual data to back up some rather wild claims. You don't really think *any* tractor manufacturer is going to put out hp claims that can be easily proven false do you? No one will, not any "color" tractor wants that kind of bad publicity.

Any time you see a "wild claim" like this, with no attempt to provide hard proof...

Well, feel free to ignore it at your leisure.

This is the internet afterall.

Yep... It's the internet.... it HAS to be true.

And yet again, more sage advice.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #31  
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #32  
I have seen so much information both ways on Tire IV Final that I find it difficult to believe much of what is said by either camp. Last year my choice was a clean used tractor. because of that. No regen worries here:)
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #33  
Not so fast. I call "shenanigans" to their claim. Lots of opinionated folks come and go on here, with very little to no hard factual data to back up some rather wild claims. You don't really think *any* tractor manufacturer is going to put out hp claims that can be easily proven false do you? No one will, not any "color" tractor wants that kind of bad publicity.

Any time you see a "wild claim" like this, with no attempt to provide hard proof...

Well, feel free to ignore it at your leisure.

This is the internet afterall.

Yep... It's the internet.... it HAS to be true.

And yet again, more sage advice.

More than anyone else here, Slowpoke Slim can actually confirm that the claimed derate makes no sense at all.

He is the one that took the emissions stuff out of his 35HP Branson and replaced with a regular muffler.

If that derate theory was true, he would have 45 HP now? :laughing:
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #34  
Not so fast. I call "shenanigans" to their claim. Lots of opinionated folks come and go on here, with very little to no hard factual data to back up some rather wild claims. You don't really think *any* tractor manufacturer is going to put out hp claims that can be easily proven false do you? No one will, not any "color" tractor wants that kind of bad publicity.

Any time you see a "wild claim" like this, with no attempt to provide hard proof...

Well, feel free to ignore it at your leisure.

This is the internet afterall.

Dont know if its true or not. I did notice when i was looking at similar HP/PTO HP and weight range to the old JD 1070 i did have to a new MF 1735M the PTO HP was significantly lower on the MF. The the point where i am not considering it anymore cause im not sure it can properly handle a 6' mower. Even a new MF 1739e doesnt compare equally to the 1070 "claimed". There seems to be a significant loss to the PTO HP on the newer ones in my very limited research and knowledge.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #35  
Easy now guys. There are pages and pages and pages of posts on here from owners that have replaced older tractors with new Tier IV tractors and noticed the power loss.

For me it's proven in larger HP variations. We replaced a 255HP pre DEF machine with a 255HP DEF machine and have noticed considerable loss. When I questioned this loss the manufacturer said the HP is calculated before the emissions equipment. This machine makes no exhaust noise at all. Everyone that is around it when working comments on how quiet it is. HP is lost during that process. There's no escaping that.

So let's not start name calling and spatting like little kids over this. Let's just look at the fact that emissions eat HP. This happens in all types of engines. It's also one reason we continually see larger HP engines being produced to do the same tasks as smaller ones used to. If not properly managed, some systems will actually detune their engine during Regen. Again, there are pages and pages and pages of posts about this.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #36  
I have seen so much information both ways on Tire IV Final that I find it difficult to believe much of what is said by either camp. Last year my choice was a clean used tractor. because of that. No regen worries here:)

DITTO !
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #37  
I have an older 28 hp mahindra and a new 38 hp mahindra there is a big difference in power. my 28 hp tractor would struggle with a 6 ft tiller and mower while the 38 hp runs them easily.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #38  
Engines are designed for specific purposes and rated accordingly. Fuel consumption, power, emissions, etc. are based on the design criteria, in this debate, RPM. I'm no engineer, but I would guess that operating outside the design range will vary the emissions. A slow lugging engine (although it may not seen to the driver) will undoubtedly contribute to excessive emissions.
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #39  
Many people are fooled into believing that a loud machine is faster or more powerful. I want to see dyno numbers!
 
/ Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?) #40  
I agree.

Baseless accusations and amusing anecdotal "stories" don't mean Bupkiss.

Provide proof of your claims or set them aside.

It would have to be the best "worst kept" secret of the modern tractor industry that manufacturers were deliberately sand bagging hp ratings for sales purposes.

Hogswallop.

Show us the dyno proof. Show us the reputable, definitive, expert vetted proof of this.

It would set the whole industry on it's ear.

Never happened.
 

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