Hydro or Gear?

[4570Man]

I’ll never own another gear tractor. HST is so much better for compact tractor work. If you’re doing anything where gears actually are better a L2501 isn’t what you want. If you’re going to get a gear at least get a good one. Those Kubota 1-4-hi/low un synchronized transmissions suck.

 

[k0ua]

As for the noise difference between HST and gear, is that really much of a factor if we're all wearing ear protection?

It is of zero factor even if you are not wearing ear protection on a CUT. SCUTS (little tractors) do whine a lot. Bigger the tractor, less the whine. ALSO, don't try to go around in HI range. The lower the range the less whine.

 

[buck12]

I had only gear for years. Recently I bought a hydro and love it. Nothing wrong with gear but for FEL work hydro is great for me. What has surprised me is how much I like it bush hogging. I tend to cut much closer to tree lines and stuff in general because it’s so easy to back up under limbs and stuff.

 

[k0ua]

I had only gear for years. Recently I bought a hydro and love it. Nothing wrong with gear but for FEL work hydro is great for me. What has surprised me is how much I like it bush hogging. I tend to cut much closer to tree lines and stuff in general because it’s so easy to back up under limbs and stuff.

Just one of the many advantages under the "precision control" heading. Like unloading a pallet from the back of your $50000 truck with a set of pallet forks or working up next to a building with your bucket or a blade when you have only a couple inches of clearance. The ability to almost instantly and infinitely control ground speed with your feet can be invaluable when doing delicate things. Take a look at this old fat boy demonstrating hydro speed control:

 

[CADplans]

From tractordata.com

Kubota L2501 Power:
Engine (gross): 24.8 hp [18.5 kW]
Engine (net): 23.9 hp [17.8 kW]
Gear PTO (claimed): 20.5 hp [15.3 kW]
Hydro PTO (claimed): 19 hp [14.2 kW]

Show me the math for a 15% power loss.

Power to the wheels can be far greater than 15% power loss,,
I like HST,, but, one guy was trying to pull a 2 bottom plow with a HST SCUT,, the tractor could not spin the wheels,,
His previous gear drive always could spin the wheels,, with a similar size engine,

No matter which of the three ranges the transmission was in,, the tires would just stop, when pulling the plow.

I tried this with my HST JD,, yep, the tires would stall,, changing ranges did not help, it just made the tractor slower.

Now, it is kinda useless to spin tires, but, it is a demonstration of engine power to the wheels.
Maybe a unique situation, but, I was able to reproduce the results.

 

[Tompet]

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums...523-warning-those-considering-gear-drive.html

Link is for previous thread on this model/topic which contained following statement:

Nonlive PTO. When mowing if you ever need to change a gear or reverse, you must fully depress the clutch pedal, which also shuts off the transmission-driven PTO (and rear cutter). If you are in heavy material and want to slow down or back up, your only choice is to raise the mower and keep going (but not getting the grass cut) or to put the clutch in, bringing the tractor and PTO to a complete stop.

 

[pmsmechanic]

With my 4410 we were digging out the dirt under a set of swings at a school in order to fill the area with pea gravel. Safer for the kids etc. It was a calm evening and I was digging out about six inches of hard dry clay. We were surrounded by the smell of rubber. I would inch into the dirt and lift off about 3" at a time with a 5' bucket and I would just slowly spin the tires as the bucket filled. Like i say the air was pungent with the small of burnt rubber. I had no trouble spinning all four tires even using the lifting of the dirt with the bucket to increase traction.

It looks like I need to edit this to add that the wheel slip was close to zero. The point is if you are able to spin your tires or not in a high traction situation. This is in response to the post below this one.

 

[4570Man]

You’re not making a good argument here. With my HST I can keep the wheel slip close to zero. My M59 will spin in 4x4 diff lock down in medium low so it’s got plenty of power to do it.

 

[rScotty]

Ok Folks i have an old Ford Hydro Subcompact but looking at upgrading to a new Kubota L2501. Just can't decide on the trans. What do you think? Leaning towards teh Hydro but I like to old style Gear also. Thanks!

Congratulations on moving into a newer style tractor. Do you plan to keep the old Ford?

Transmisson decisions depends on what you do with your tractor. Each transmission has it's advantages and disadvantages. For reasonable advice, we need to know what you use your tractor for, and how you plan to equip it - but you probably already know all that.

So .... ... will it have a FEL? And if so what do you do with it. What kind of tires will it be running? What kind of 3pt implements do you use and how important are plowing, tillage, and mowing? Is your soil clay, loam, or sand? Anything else we ought to know?
rScotty

 

[WoodDuck]

Congratulations on moving into a newer style tractor. Do you plan to keep the old Ford?

Transmisson decisions depends on what you do with your tractor. Each transmission has it's advantages and disadvantages. For reasonable advice, we need to know what you use your tractor for, and how you plan to equip it - but you probably already know all that.

So .... ... will it have a FEL? And if so what do you do with it. What kind of tires will it be running? What kind of 3pt implements do you use and how important are plowing, tillage, and mowing? Is your soil clay, loam, or sand? Anything else we ought to know?
rScotty

I agree with rScotty, depends on your intended usage. For mainly FEL work, most prefer HST. For mainly ground-engaging (plow, disc, other heavy pulling) work, many prefer a geared transmission. As far as PTO work, its seemed like a wash to me; not enough real-world difference to matter too much. If you need more than 19 PTO HP for your intended tasks, or have any major ground-engaging work ahead of you, you'd be a lot better off moving up into a larger HP tractor to start with in my opinion. Its easy to do smaller HP-needed jobs with a larger HP tractor, but its very hard to do larger HP-needed jobs with a smaller HP tractor. Been my past experience anyway. Good luck in your quest, lots of knowledgeable people here to help you. You just have to understand your particular tractor needs, and size/transmission the machine appropriately.

 

[ptsg]

If you mind is set on the L2501, I think the main deciding factor will be how the PTO is setup.

As pointed out on the first page or so, the L2501 Gear doesn't have an independent PTO. This means the PTO will stop whenever you press the clutch. As an example, when mowing against a fence or something, you want to feather the clutch to go slowly but the PTO will also go slower.

If you're not set on the L2501, there are plenty of options available. Either Kubota or several other brands.

 

[ptsg]

Sold my hydro so I could buy a gear....but for me, even more important is how much cast aluminum is being used in the newer tractors. I sold my newer tractor to get an older tractor, gear drive and all cast iron

There are plenty of new tractors with Cast Iron transmission cases. In fact, only Kubota and JD make Aluminium cases on CUT.

 

[PsRumors]

There are plenty of new tractors with Cast Iron transmission cases. In fact, only Kubota and JD make Aluminium cases on CUT.

You are correct, Mahindra, Kioti, Branson are the ones I know of

 

[rScotty]

There are plenty of new tractors with Cast Iron transmission cases. In fact, only Kubota and JD make Aluminium cases on CUT.

That's interesting. I had heard that some super compact little tractors had aluminum cases, but didn't know that utility size tractors were too. It sounds like you have researched it; which models are using aluminum cases? What are the issues?

When comparing the materials, there is a huge range of quality in cast iron compared to aluminum. That's why manufacturing engineers tend to keep a closer check on the quality of work that comes out of a foundary casting iron parts than one that is casting aluminum. For a tractor, I'd probably pay more attention to where the founding and machining was done than which metal was used.

All else being equal - and it rarely is - then for cast cases I'd prefer good quality ductile cast iron to aluminum, and aluminum over a mediocre or brittle type cast iron.
rScotty

 

[SDT]

You have to look at data for drawbar hp. That痴 where the parasitic loses of hydrostatic transmissions will show up.

Bingo, Rick.

This is why hydrostats are poorly suited to ground engaging tasks such as plowing. This is also one of the major reasons why one never sees fully hydrostatic transmissions in high HP tractors designed for tillage.

Not shown from manufacturers advertised specs.

SDT

 

[SDT]

Power to the wheels can be far greater than 15% power loss,,
I like HST,, but, one guy was trying to pull a 2 bottom plow with a HST SCUT,, the tractor could not spin the wheels,,
His previous gear drive always could spin the wheels,, with a similar size engine,

No matter which of the three ranges the transmission was in,, the tires would just stop, when pulling the plow.

I tried this with my HST JD,, yep, the tires would stall,, changing ranges did not help, it just made the tractor slower.

Now, it is kinda useless to spin tires, but, it is a demonstration of engine power to the wheels.
Maybe a unique situation, but, I was able to reproduce the results.

Bingo, DAD.

25% is more realistic.

SDT

 

[SDT]

Youæ±*e not making a good argument here. With my HST I can keep the wheel slip close to zero. My M59 will spin in 4x4 diff lock down in medium low so itç—´ got plenty of power to do it.

Maybe.

Ever tried plowing with a properly matched plow? Understand the concept of draft control?

SDT

 

[4570Man]

Maybe.

Ever tried plowing with a properly matched plow? Understand the concept of draft control?

SDT

I plow a small garden once every couple years. If I was buying a tractor to plow it would be gears but since I’m not and most people with a compact tractor also aren’t I’m not sure what the point is.

 

[Threepoint]

That's interesting. I had heard that some super compact little tractors had aluminum cases, but didn't know that utility size tractors were too. It sounds like you have researched it; which models are using aluminum cases? What are the issues?

When comparing the materials, there is a huge range of quality in cast iron compared to aluminum. That's why manufacturing engineers tend to keep a closer check on the quality of work that comes out of a foundary casting iron parts than one that is casting aluminum. For a tractor, I'd probably pay more attention to where the founding and machining was done than which metal was used.

All else being equal - and it rarely is - then for cast cases I'd prefer good quality ductile cast iron to aluminum, and aluminum over a mediocre or brittle type cast iron.
rScotty

Interesting, indeed! I'd like to learn more about this, as well: especially advantages and disadvantages of aircraft-grade aluminum vs well-cast, ductile iron for various CUT parts. One situation that comes to mind is hooking up a PTO-driven implement with a shaft too long for the tractor. A broken transmission case can result when the hitch is suddenly raised too high. Would the aluminum or cast iron be better able to withstand the force? :scratchchin: Just one example where it might make a difference.

Don't want to hijack the OP's thread. Think I'll start a separate one on this.

 

[radios1]

Bingo, DAD.

25% is more realistic.

SDT

+1 the HST can get very hot under a large load, which means energy wasted as heat, instead of mechanical energy.