Comparison New Tractor Emissions Technologies

[Waharanch]

I have tried to dig through some older posts, but only found one fairly recent conversation which turned into a 9 page political battle. Please no politics just looking for answers.

I currently have a 2016 Kubota 3901, which has been a good tractor but the dpf regen seems to want to happen at the most inconvenient times. Looking to upgrade to something in the 45-50 HP range. I would prefer a tractor with no DPF or DEF, and have been looking at Mahindra which advertises their MCRD no user intervention emissions. It looks like Massey Ferguson may also have something similar, but can't find concrete evidence on their website. Are there any other tractor brands selling new with no DEF or DPF? I would prefer to buy new to take advantage of financing and warranty, but if all else fails I will look for a 08-11 used CASE IH 40 or something close.

Thanks for any input.

 

[ptsg]

Welcome to TBN.

Don't let those marketing strategies fool you. All tractors from 25HP and up will have emissions on it. Up to 75HP they can get away with simpler systems than the tractors over 75HP. Over 75HP requires SCR, DEF, and some other complex stuff.

Some manufacturers will use DPF, whiles others use just simple DOC. Basically speaking, the DPF will accumulate the particles, till it gets to a certain level, then it will do a regen, where it burns all these particles and basically empties itself.

The DOC, is always burning once it gets operating temps, so this one requires running at higher RPMs and reduce the idling pretty much to nothing. Mahindra, Massey and others use this system. This system will plug up if the tractor idles too much or it's not running hard enough. Most problems with this system would actually be reduced a lot if the owners would simply road the tractor in the highest gear for a mile or two every once in a while. This would load the tractor enough for the DOC to burn all the crap inside. This is something that the dealers could instruct to the owners.

So far, I'm only aware of one brand that actually allows you to remove/disable the emissions without a computer preventing it from runnings. It's Branson and the way they did it, it's like a add-on that gets put on accordingly to the market it gets sold since their engines are all mechanical, no electronics needed to run it. In the US market, they just put a DOC on it and a data logger for it. This allows the owner to basically take the DOC out, replace with a muffler and just unplug the data logger. You then have a emissions free tractor that runs perfectly fine, lets you running at whatever RPM you want and lets you idle all you want.

 

[ericm979]

No tractor under 75hp uses DEF. The requirements are easier below 75hp so it's not needed. They're easier again under 25.5hp, and DPF or DOC is not needed.

Tractors between 25.5 and 75hp use DOC, DPF, or both. Some of those don't have discrete regens but do some form of low temp continual regen. I think Mahindra uses a DOC. Branson uses a DOC+DPF with no discrete regens. Some Kubotas with regens also have a DOC+DPF.

Often the problem of too many regens is because the engine is not being worked hard enough often enough. The manufacturer will say how they want you to run the engine. On my Branson there's a green line on the tach between 2000 and 2500 rpm. I try to keep it there for most use and don't let it sit and idle for long periods of time.

 

[Waharanch]

Thanks this is great info. I do tend to do a lot of idling, puttering around pulling tposts or other stop and go tasks. So now that makes me more leary of the Mahindra or Massey possibly plugging up. I guess I will look into the Branson and keep an eye out for used as well

 

[jaydee325]

Thanks this is great info. I do tend to do a lot of idling, puttering around pulling tposts or other stop and go tasks. So now that makes me more leary of the Mahindra or Massey possibly plugging up. I guess I will look into the Branson and keep an eye out for used as well

Both systems (DOC, DPF) are prone to more frequent plugging when operated at low RPM/Low Load frequently.

Best advice I can give you is try and obtain the operator manuals for each machine you are considering and read the section carefully on operation. Also ask the dealer the recommended operating parameters. If a dealer can't talk fluently on this matter, go elsewhere. If they don't know how it is supposed to be operated, they probably don't know how to trouble shoot and repair emissions systems.

Sorry, no free lunch.

 

[rodneyn]

Since I have shuttle shift with DOC hind sight I would have bought hydrostatic typically you run rpms higher for hydro unless you are running tied in throttle to pedal. Shuttle shift sees more idle time I have to do manual regen more often since I use it below 2000 rpms. All of them have some Issues with added EPA equipment at one time or another. Under 25 Hp there is no EPA issues just less HP.

 

[rademamj1]

You recieved some very good expert advice regarding tractor emissions. There is just no way to avoid Tier-4 emissions on any tractor 26hp and greater.

Kubota, Kioti, John Deere, New Holland, Case and many other manufacturers use a two stage diesel emissions process for tractors in 26hp to 75hp, which includes a 1st stage DOC + 2nd stage DPF. The first stage DOC removes only incompletely burned gases and passes Diesel particulates to the DPF cannister for burning and elimination during regeneration by using a spray of diesel fuel to encourage the burn. For tractors over 75hp, the two stage emissions process adds the messy DEF for removal of additional unwanted gases. Occasionally, the DPF cannister can become plugged, most commonly by failure of the operator to maintain high RPM during tractor operations. When the DPF filter is plugged, it requires dealer assistance.

Massy-Fergusion and Mahindra use only a single stage diesel emissions process consisting of only the DOC. All unwanted gases and the diesel particulates are burned in the DOC simultaneously. Even higher RPM tractor operation is required to keep the DOC from plugging with diesel particulates. When the DOC filter is plugged, it requires dealer assistance.

Tractor operators who do keep high RPM operations, and still incur plugged filters, usually find they have an injector or even two injectors running an over rich fuel mixture, which has quickly plugged their filters.

 

[chim]

I bought 5 tractors since 1990. First two were very used, then two new ones before buying a nice used one the last time. The reason for buying used the last time was to avoid any issues with the emissions components. It took nearly a year to find the right tractor. Since replacing the L3200 wasn't an emergency the search was enjoyable.

 

[Bigpuddie]

Thanks this is great info. I do tend to do a lot of idling, puttering around pulling tposts or other stop and go tasks. So now that makes me more leary of the Mahindra or Massey possibly plugging up. I guess I will look into the Branson and keep an eye out for used as well

I have the Massey Ferguson 4707. It uses a pass through DOC, designed to last the life of the tractor with no service. I do 80% loader work at 1200 rpm. Never had a minutes problem with it. Its designed to never plug as it's a pass through, similar to a catalytic converter. Massey Ferguson hit a home run with this setup.

 

[Rmart30]

I have the Massey Ferguson 4707. It uses a pass through DOC, designed to last the life of the tractor with no service. I do 80% loader work at 1200 rpm. Never had a minutes problem with it. Its designed to never plug as it's a pass through, similar to a catalytic converter. Massey Ferguson hit a home run with this setup.

I havent seen a masseys off and looked but the DOC i have had off in hand have been honeycombed as a DPF filter is.

We used to use what they called "scrubbers" on diesel engines. They were a true pass thru like a catalytic convertor and worked basically the same way. No electronics were needed and they didnt stop up. Thats what they should have implemented first on tractors in addition to tier 3 standards instead of jumping into tier 4.



For the OP. You said you would go used if have too. You should be able to find a nice used kubota pre 2014 with no emissions on it. I bit the bullet and purchased mine new in 2013 knowing what was coming, and knowing i wanted no part of it on my tractor. For a lot of the tasks I do with a tractor it requires it to idle for a few minutes or me turn it off and crank it a dozen times. Id rather be able to idle than have to re crank it that much, and I dont like running the pee out of things I own and want to last for many many years.

 

[MaineGuy1]

I have the Massey Ferguson 4707. It uses a pass through DOC, designed to last the life of the tractor with no service. I do 80% loader work at 1200 rpm. Never had a minutes problem with it. Its designed to never plug as it's a pass through, similar to a catalytic converter. Massey Ferguson hit a home run with this setup.

I have the Massey 1735M with Shibaura engine with DOC. My dealer said to run it as normal and not worry about high rpm's if I don't need them. I need to re-read the owners manual to see what it says. I don't have many hours, maybe 65, but it runs great. I'm glad I don't have to deal with the Regens. Some of my buddies that have Regens have had problems. Others have been fine though.

 

[ericm979]

I think with most of them if you run them hard enough, often enough, that's all they need. I let mine idle while I'm changing implements or getting off for few minutes. Sometimes I operate it below the green zone on the tach. But I also run it at full rpm when running the chipper, and often with the chipper it's using all the power it's got. It's been fine.

 

[kenmac]

some 2013 models have no emissions. That's why I bought a 200 hr 2013 MX5100. I was looking at a 2013 6070 but they had already put emissions on that model

So, if looking at used you would have to get a 2012 I believe in any size to be emissions free.

I recently bought a McCormick CX105. I had to wait a while till the dealer got a trade in model without emissions, as many are keeping their emissions free tractors instead of trading them in.

If I were buying new, I would look hard at Branson due to the customer being able to remove emissions without any ill effects

 

[ericm979]

There have been off road diesel emissions standards since 1998. Tiers 1-3 were able to be met with engine design- things like combustion chamber shape and injection timing. Tier 4 under 25hp can still be met with engine design.

This is a good explanation and summary: Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

 

[jeff9366]

Tractors between 25.5 and 75hp use DOC, DPF, or both. Some of those don't have discrete regens but do some form of low temp continual regen. I think Mahindra uses a DOC. Branson uses a DOC+DPF with no discrete regens. Some Kubotas with regens also have a DOC+DPF.

Kubota, Kioti, John Deere, New Holland, Case and many other manufacturers use a two stage diesel emissions process for tractors in 26hp to 75hp, which includes a 1st stage DOC + 2nd stage DPF. The first stage DOC removes only incompletely burned gases and passes Diesel particulates to the DPF cannister for burning and elimination during regeneration by using a spray of diesel fuel to encourage the burn. For tractors over 75hp, the two stage emissions process adds the messy DEF for removal of additional unwanted gases. Occasionally, the DPF cannister can become plugged, most commonly by failure of the operator to maintain high RPM during tractor operations. When the DPF filter is plugged, it requires dealer assistance.

Bad information within these posts indicated with bold font.

 

[ruffdog]

I think with most of them if you run them hard enough, often enough, that's all they need. I let mine idle while I'm changing implements or getting off for few minutes. Sometimes I operate it below the green zone on the tach. But I also run it at full rpm when running the chipper, and often with the chipper it's using all the power it's got. It's been fine.

^^agree. It's when they are run at low speed while puttering around is when most people are having issues.

 

[jaydee325]

There have been off road diesel emissions standards since 1998. Tiers 1-3 were able to be met with engine design- things like combustion chamber shape and injection timing. Tier 4 under 25hp can still be met with engine design.

This is a good explanation and summary: Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines

It was much before that for implementation of diesel emissions equipment. In 1980, I was a heavy equipment tech at a Fiat Allis dealership. In 1980, the front end loaders shipped with a retarder attached to the throttle linkage. This slowed the movement of the throttle linkage to reduce the black smoke when the operator stepped on the throttle. The operators hated the slow throttle response!!

When the first loader showed up at the dealer, our service manager made it a point to make sure we all knew what the retarder was for and that we were under no circumstances to disable it. We were also told we could point out to the owner how HE could disable it, which was fairly simple.

 

[kenmac]

^^agree. It's when they are run at low speed while puttering around is when most people are having issues.

probably so, But in real world conditions, Many (that I know) don't run wide open from the time they start the tractor until it's turned off.
If you are grading the drive , spreading dirt, etc, It doesn't require one to run @2500RPM. In fact, it would be difficult to get a smooth grad running at 2500 RPM the entire time

When I'm grading, or spreading dirt, gravel, etc,. I run about 1700 RPM so as not screw up the grade when going over humps and bumps

 

[kenmac]

There have been off road diesel emissions standards since 1998. [/url]

Heck, there may have been some emissions before then. I remember gasoline engines having some emissions back in the 70's, but not near what they are today

I think when someone speaks of emissions, they aren't speaking of light emissions like there were back then.

Those emissions back then, were nothing compared to today's emissions, that most are speaking of when they use the word emissions today

 

[todd92]

Having just had so far unsolved DPF problems on a Kioti, I vowed to find a new tractor without DPF. In the 26-75 HP range there are only 3 I could find. MF, Mahindra and Case/NH Farmall Utility (not compact, which are LS made). Going through the terrible Kioti dealer/corporate support, I would rule out Mahindra for the same reason. When it came to the Kioti NX5510, the close second was the MF1760, but I couldn't justify the price delta...if I only knew.

Keep in mind the DPF is just a simple filter, if it's plugging up it's because there is another problem upstream, either running rich or an intake or oil leak. ALL tractors with or without DPF have DOC. While there such a thing a DOC 'face plugging', 99.9% of diesel emission problems are DPF related.

Now happily driving a Case Farmall 75A, which is an entire new level of size and power above a compact. So far very happy.