New CK2610 : rough running/clanging engine, cold and hot

[mangler]

Robin,

Thanks for the suggestions. Still working on the delivery tank of fuel, but I have 2 give gallon cans waiting, with some Motomaster 5 in 1 added in the diesel ( cetane, lubricity, gelling and more)? I do have a 6 month me need him to Amsoil, so I may get a bottle of cetane boost to test the difference. I like the Amsoil oil a lot, but not the price. I will stick with Mobil Delvac 0W40, just as good and cheaper. I did get a pail of their GLC grease though, as its top notch.

Fred,

I would hope the preheater is working, with only 13 hours on the clock. I will look for the rpm surge to make sure. One question, when I reverse the key to activate glow plug pre-heat, does it stop on its own if I just keep the key turned? I always stop after 6-8 secs as I am scared of damaging the glow plugs.

 

[The Fred]

Before you go further test the connection at the piece I showed you there. Mine melted the connector at that picture location with just 5 hours on the machine. I don't find that cycling the plugs twice is really needed but mine is performing as designed. I DO however need one full cycle of the plugs, turn the key on and watch the glow light, it takes a couple seconds to come on after the instrument cluster self test. Wait until the light goes off and fire the engine, it should run fairly smooth if you let it go a full glow plug cycle.

I notice on mine it will smoke white a little bit and run rough IF the intake pre-heater fuse is pulled. Do you have a test light? If so when you start the machine check for 13.5ish volts at the pre-heater connection. If you have volts it still doesn't mean the grid is using it, that requires an amp draw test. Also if you start the engine cold and feel heat at the connector under the rubber boot at the pre-heater grid you might have a bad connection there; it's an 8 or 10mm wrench size (can't remember).

You bought a non-emissions engine, they don't start and run nearly as nice as a computer controlled common rail engine. They do not however have problems down the road because the systems aren't there to cause any.

 

[mangler]

Fred,

Thanks for the detailed troubleshooting tips, I will have to look now. I have a clamp ampmeter (somewhere) and a voltmeter, so that will not be an issue. May I add that a failure of this type 5 hrs in is complete BS? Did they fix this under warranty, or at least provide you with a new/upgraded part?

Your starting process is exactly was I was expecting and doing for the first starts, but she would bellow black smoke right in my face. The reverse key starts pretty much reduced that to a tolerable level, but maybe it's related to that fried pre-heater...

 

[The Fred]

I fix stuff for a living so I never went back to the dealer. We drink beer though, told me Saturday after like 10 beers and a few games of cornhole that their sales are through the roof.

If you don't like the machine you can sell it right now and not lose any money because, he said, there aren't any available.

I'll add that a correcty running 2610 will smoke a little black on startup. White smoke is usually caused from incomplete combustion.

 

[mangler]

I fix stuff for a living so I never went back to the dealer. We drink beer though, told me Saturday after like 10 beers and a few games of cornhole that their sales are through the roof.

If you don't like the machine you can sell it right now and not lose any money because, he said, there aren't any available.

I'll add that a correcty running 2610 will smoke a little black on startup. White smoke is usually caused from incomplete combustion.

Thanks , I will take a video starting "cold" with a normal glow plug cycle, it is more than a little black smoke... When I give it a reverse cycle, It gives a little puff, which I suspect is closer to normal.

Still like the machine, used my box blade for the first time yesterday, it did everything I wanted even with a full 72" box blade. I low and sometimes had to use diff lock, but I still was impressed. Not trading it in, but I also bought a new tractor because I did not want a project. Bringing it to the dealer is a royal PIA, so I don't mind fixing it in my garage as long as Kioti springs for the parts.

Did you end up replacing the connector with an OTS part? Did you have to upgrade the wiring?

 

[The Fred]

I used an off the shelf connector crimped and soldered. Mine burned right at the connector there in the picture on the right.

 

[mangler]

Here she is starting "cold", 70deg, with single standard glow plug cycle. I tried to get the full puff of black smoke with the camera, but I missed the initial plume.

[video]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xzwMkD2HVESah0-c5DKHT4YaOQFaEOzy/view?usp=sharing[/video]

If I am looking at the right connector, mine looks fine.

I will still get some electrical testing done on the next start.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I have never heard the clapping or ticking of a Diesel Engine ignition event, described as a clanky noise.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Sounds healthy to me.

 

[mangler]

Sounds healthy to me.

Check the video on post 16, you can hear the mechanical noises much better. The latest one was for the startup smoke, which I kind of missed filming. It definitely pollutes the whole garage. Somehow with the slightly higher temperature the pinging was a little less pronounced on the last video.

I have heard clicking/injector noise in diesels, what I was hearing was pinging, like someone hitting a cast iron housing with a hammer. MIE explained this was the pre-ignition chambers, and everyone seems to think it is mostly normal. It may be a low cetane fuel issue also, I will be able to test when I start with a fresh tank with some cetane boost.

 

[The Fred]

It sounds normal and the black smoke is normal.

Take it out and break it in right by loading it down and using it, get it hot and flog it. Make sure it grenades before the warranty is up.

What's up with the steering wheel? Are you considering using the horn button for propane injection?:thumbsup:

 

[mangler]

Lol, funny you should mention propane, I converted my G5500 garden tractor 3 years ago! A lot less smoke on startup with propane, although currently running on gas since they were giving it away there for a while.

I popped the logo off the wheel cause they put the wheel on crooked on assembly, and I told myself I did not want to look at a crooked logo for 20 years. Popping off the wheel is "on the list".



Good to know that's normal, they just puff a bit when cold it seems. I might try the 2 glow plug cycle trick from MIE, as the reverse key extra flow plug time really reduced initial startup smoke for me.

Looks like she's dirty and noisy. As long as she keeps going I guess I can live with that. Wish the range selector was easier to put in low range, but maybe that will also get better with break in. Currently have to do the clutch/forward/reverse pedal dance to get her to go.

 

[The Fred]

Because the steering is hydraulic the wheel constantly moves around slowly in one direction. Best to leave it alone.

 

[mangler]

Because the steering is hydraulic the wheel constantly moves around slowly in one direction. Best to leave it alone.

Good to know. I'll pop the badge back on and pretend I don't see it. Better than getting a worn steering box in the future I guess.

 

[finn1]

The "clanky" noise is due to the indirect injection of the diesel. The CK2610 utilizes the mechanical indirect injection system like the other Tier III Diesels. What sounds like "clanking" is actually caused by the combustion that takes place in the pre-combustion chamber in the engine head. Gives it that old "Diesel" sound as the fuel combusts in the pre-combustion chamber. They do quiet down some when they warm up, but still "ping".

Very interesting comment. Kioti seems to go out of their way to avoid revealing that the 2610 still has the old, low technology IDI combustion system while the ck 3510 and 4010, as well the larger series have all moved on to direct injection and common rail fuel systems. It is really a marketing slight of hand to label the dirty IDI and the clean 3510/4010 both as Eco Diesels (3510 &4010 are Eco CRDI).

Being an IDI, if in fact it is as Michigan Iron suggests, there is a tremendous heat loss through the prechamber insert and transfer portcompared to the DI siblings . This heat loss manifests itself as poor cold start and warm up characteristics and somewhat rattle like sounding combustion due to high rates of pressure rise in the combustion system. The old GM 6.2 l Diesel from thirty five years ago, and the early 6.9 Ford Diesels exemplify this sound.

The DI engines have a much better controlled combustion process, due at least in part to the very flexible common rail fuel system, which has full range timing control and pilot injection which can be optimized with ambient altitude and temperature conditions as well as engine temperature and speed / load .

The other interesting thing to point out is the oil change interval of the 2610 compared to the 3510/4010. The common rail direct injection engines have longer intervals because of the inherently cleaner combustion, and the fact that the prechamber designs of the IDI blow a stoichiometrically rich, sooty flameout of the prechamber and across the top of the piston, which impinges on the cylinder wall. The soot then goes across the ring face and into the oil, necessitating more frequent oil changes.

 

[Industrial Toys]

That is probably way above the pay grade of the average consumer that buys this class of equipment. How much are the payments, Does it have blue tooth and how big is the cupholder? Many people like my lady friend has no idea how many cylinders are under her hood,

 

[WillardinMaine]

Being an IDI, if in fact it is as Michigan Iron suggests, there is a tremendous heat loss through the prechamber insert and transfer portcompared to the DI siblings . This heat loss manifests itself as poor cold start and warm up characteristics and somewhat rattle like sounding combustion due to high rates of pressure rise in the combustion system. The old GM 6.2 l Diesel from thirty five years ago, and the early 6.9 Ford Diesels exemplify this sound.

Well that’s somewhat disconcerting as those are not Diesel engines I hold in high regard. I purchased the Bobcat version of the 2610 not only to save money upfront, but also in costs down the road of 20 years of planned ownership. Time will tell I guess

 

[finn1]

Well that’s somewhat disconcerting as those are not Diesel engines I hold in high regard. I purchased the Bobcat version of the 2610 not only to save money upfront, but also in costs down the road of 20 years of planned ownership. Time will tell I guess

Don’t get me wrong. IDI engine’s are cheaper to produce and can offer a long and reliable service life.. it’s just that they are low tech and not really competitive in some aspects because they just don’t have modern technology to address some issues that electronics have enabled Development Engineers to address.

The plus of all that is that they are simple and easy to maintain and repair. Attributes that are exactly what a large population of consumers want, and that have made the sub 25 hp segment popular, especially among a large percentage of participants in this forum.

 

[The Fred]

WHAT, finn1, do you not understand? In 20 years when your computer controlled cleaner running engine is no longer supported by the manufacturer neither will the lower class, lower priced, fuel burning, shop stinking up smoking 65 year old technology Diesel engine of the 2610. The difference is the 2610 will still be running, stinking up the environment and the original poster's shop.

AND the original poster will have a garden that feeds him and his family and you'll be tilling your garden with a potato fork because the ECM or injectors went bad in your machine and you can't make it run.

You pays your money you takes your chances.

NO criticism intended.

 

[finn1]

WHAT, finn1, do you not understand? In 20 years when your computer controlled cleaner running engine is no longer supported by the manufacturer neither will the lower class, lower priced, fuel burning, shop stinking up smoking 65 year old technology Diesel engine of the 2610. The difference is the 2610 will still be running, stinking up the environment and the original poster's shop.

AND the original poster will have a garden that feeds him and his family and you'll be tilling your garden with a potato fork because the ECM or injectors went bad in your machine and you can't make it run.

You pays your money you takes your chances.

NO criticism intended.

I do understand where you are coming from, but those arguments are just replays of the rhetoric bantered about in the seventies as the automobile industry transitioned first to alternators to generators (sixties) then to simple electronic ignitions, and finally to completely integrated engine management and control systems. Most light truck Diesels have been electronically controlled since about 1994, and the transition in heavy trucks, large tractors, and construction equipment started shortly thereafter.

Like I said, the obsolete mechanical engines are still available in low power applications, which typically run sixty or so hours annually, so, if that’s what you want, go for it. No need to defend that personal choice. I imagine there re even a few engines above 25 hp that are using credits to prolong the market availability of the old technology, albeit I don’t know who those manufacturers are.

Change won’t make the world tilt on its axis, and you and I will probably be long departed in fifty years. I know I will be.

I struggled through the transition to electronics. Lots of twenty hour days, lots of mistakes, and lots of successes. Having the privilege of working on cutting edge technology for thirty some years is something I will personally cherish forever, the capabilities of electronics have truly revolutionalised the industry.