240D Starter Issue

[Altona]

Thanks for all the observations and advice; really, really appreciate it and hope I can reciprocate . Here's where I'm at with this problem; its kind of under my skin now so I have to solve it!
Load tested the battery-It is in low end of the range on the chart that came with the tester but still within it. Note-Even though there are warning labels on the tester about how hot it gets when testing I wasn't prepared for it. They weren't kidding!
Removed Starter from tractor- counted the teeth, there are 15 as spec'd
Bench ran the Starter- Using booster cables and a short jumper for the solenoid. The gear went to the end most of the time but not always. One of the pictures shows it in motion not reaching the stopper on the shaft. I'm thinking this is the problem, at least in part. Did it about 50 times, it going to the end was random but I'd say 1 in 5 or 6 times it didn't.
It is the correct starter-Checked by Yanmar and Hitachi part numbers.
Found the old gear-I tend to toss old parts on a shelf (not sure why) Really bad wear on first 20% of gear. Looks like it wasn't going all the way up and engaging the entire tooth. Didn't notice when I changed the unit as I had in my mind it was spring tension issue.
Have attached pictures. Taking the one with starter engaged was a little weird but got it.
My thinking is there is a distortion, albeit a minor one in the shaft causing the gear not to go right to the end where the stopper is and causing limited engagment with the ring gear. When you do it by hand you don't feel it and it goes to the end.
Opinions? I think next step is to change the starter unit.
Again, appreciate the advice and interest. Am happy to be part of this group.

 

[CoyPatton]

If the battery test in the low end of good under a load, make sure you keep a good full charge on the battery or replace it.
If the gear is not going to the end of the shaft, there is an issue. Personally, I doubt it is a shaft issue, but like an internal electrical issue.
rScotty may be able to walk you through rebuilding it, but as we are in the midst of tractor project season for most of us, bite the preverbal bullet and order a starter.
Put it on the shelf to rebuild as a winter project if the place you order from does not want a core returned.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks for all the observations and advice; really, really appreciate it and hope I can reciprocate . Here's where I'm at with this problem; its kind of under my skin now so I have to solve it!
Load tested the battery-It is in low end of the range on the chart that came with the tester but still within it. Note-Even though there are warning labels on the tester about how hot it gets when testing I wasn't prepared for it. They weren't kidding!
Removed Starter from tractor- counted the teeth, there are 15 as spec'd
Bench ran the Starter- Using booster cables and a short jumper for the solenoid. The gear went to the end most of the time but not always. One of the pictures shows it in motion not reaching the stopper on the shaft. I'm thinking this is the problem, at least in part. Did it about 50 times, it going to the end was random but I'd say 1 in 5 or 6 times it didn't.
It is the correct starter-Checked by Yanmar and Hitachi part numbers.
Found the old gear-I tend to toss old parts on a shelf (not sure why) Really bad wear on first 20% of gear. Looks like it wasn't going all the way up and engaging the entire tooth. Didn't notice when I changed the unit as I had in my mind it was spring tension issue.
Have attached pictures. Taking the one with starter engaged was a little weird but got it.
My thinking is there is a distortion, albeit a minor one in the shaft causing the gear not to go right to the end where the stopper is and causing limited engagment with the ring gear. When you do it by hand you don't feel it and it goes to the end.
Opinions? I think next step is to change the starter unit.
Again, appreciate the advice and interest. Am happy to be part of this group.

But first lets back up a minute.
Yes, I can guide you through a rebuild of the starter. On your end you are going to have to have a known good battery and a multimeter for me to be able to do that.
But what worries me the most is acting right now to save what is left of your poor old ring gear. You don't have enough left to experiment with.
And the best way to do that is to get a rebuilt starter that you absolutely know is standard for your tractor. No aftermarket crap. Go to one of the old Yanmar guys like Hoye or Leonard Shaeffer. Guys who know those old 240Ds.... from half a century ago!!

I haven't followed along like I should have. Did you rebuild the solenoid? Thinking back, I believe that originally this starter was originally the kind whose solenoid had a lever that the solenoid electromagnet used to push the starter gear to the end of the shaft rather than being the type where the starter revolutions moved the starter gear into engagement.

I'd have to check some old literature tonight and see what starter that was called for. It has part numbers on the starter? What are they? I was going to ask if that starter had any clues or ID on it.... that's good.
rScotty

 

[Altona]

Thanks Coy,That is exactly what I was thinking, you could very well be correct it could be an internal electrical issue. I didn't observe a distortion or anything just noticed it.

 

[Altona]

Thanks rScotty-I get everything from Hoye's for this tractor since I got. Answering your other questions-I changed the solenoid to new one. And yes it has the solenoid actuated lever but it pushes on a spring which pushes the gear out.. The starter is the original (I think) and has the correct Hitachi number which coincides with the correct Yanmar number. The first photo shows the number stamping on the starter which is "114-146" which I've cross referenced in two Yanmar manuals to Yanmar part number 124450-77010. I plan on changing out the battery too. Looking at the wear on the original drive gear I think the problem has been there a long time and it has never gone out to the end of its travel correctly or consistently. I agree I want to save what's left of the ring gear. Not from a cost standpoint as much as not wanting to have to split the tractor (which is time consuming enough) but looking at it the loader would have to come off too, I believe. Perhaps in the winter I'll tap into your expertise and look at the old starter.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks rScotty-I get everything from Hoye's for this tractor since I got. Answering your other questions-I changed the solenoid to new one. And yes it has the solenoid actuated lever but it pushes on a spring which pushes the gear out.. The starter is the original (I think) and has the correct Hitachi number which coincides with the correct Yanmar number. The first photo shows the number stamping on the starter which is "114-146" which I've cross referenced in two Yanmar manuals to Yanmar part number 124450-77010. I plan on changing out the battery too. Looking at the wear on the original drive gear I think the problem has been there a long time and it has never gone out to the end of its travel correctly or consistently. I agree I want to save what's left of the ring gear. Not from a cost standpoint as much as not wanting to have to split the tractor (which is time consuming enough) but looking at it the loader would have to come off too, I believe. Perhaps in the winter I'll tap into your expertise and look at the old starter.

Hmmm....wait a minute. Do you mean that there is a spring on the pinion shaft?? I thought the spring was a return spring only and in the solenoid...

I had thought that the way it is built is with a return spring within the solenoid itself that keeps the solenoid plunger located properly when it is not powered up. And that one end of the actuating lever is pulled by the movement of the solenoid with the other end of the actuating lever permanently engaged into a collar on the pinion shaft so that it can move that pinion gear back and forth on that shaft (on a bevel) to engage and disengage from the flywheel.

Then in operation, the lever would move the pinion out to engage the flywheel when the solenoid is powered which also compresses the spring in the solenoid. Then when the solenoid is not powered any longer the compressed spring extends to move the solenoid plunger which in turn moves the lever sliding the pinion gear back away from the flywheel. The critical point here is I thought that the return spring was contained in the solenoid itself. Is yours different?

BTW, there is an adjustment for the clearance between the gear teeth on the resting starter pinion and the gear teeth on the flywheel. That distance should end up being from 3 to 5 mm of space when the starter is resting and not actuated or engaged. Frankly I've never heard of that spec. needing adjustment, but this may be the case where it does. Especially if you suspect this starter has been serviced before.

Depending on the starter, the adjustment is made to the solenoid plunger movement. And it is made by either stacking shims between the solenoid and the plunger housing (Yanmar offers .4 and .8 mm shims) or by an adjustable stop screw and nut that that limits plunger motion. Apparently the starter is either the type that takes shims or the type that has a screw&nut adjustment - neither is well explained in my workshop manual so it's going to be a matter of figuring it out. Like I said, I've never done it and didn't even know it was possible or necessary.
But it is handy to know that there is adjustability of engagement and that the goal is a resting clearnance of 3 to 5 mm between pinion and flywheel gears.

Of course it could also be something other. It could be that the pinion could be binding on the shaft, or the return spring could be the wrong one, or the lever and pivots that throw the pinion out could be worn or bent. All of this is just a matter of craftsmanship and careful inspection more than measurement.....although knowing that 3 to 5 mm resting clearance is the goal does help.
rScotty

 

[Altona]

Thanks rScotty-You've pointed out a number of things here and as previously, have opened my thinking to another possibility. I answer paragraph by paragraph to your post

There is a spring integral to the pinion assembly between the collar plate the plunger attaches to and the gear itself. It is mostly concealed by the cover over the shaft. both my shop manual and my parts manual just list the whole thing as a pinion assembly. That is the spring I referred to, perhaps wrongly.

No, this one in operation matches your description

No mention is made anywhere of the resting clearance to the flywheel. I'm going to assume (rightly I hope) that it would be measured by the distance between the pinion gear at rest and the pinion stop on the shaft? I don't know any other way it could be measured, do you?



There is a spring (weird looking one) between the solenoid body and the housing that would govern the throw of the plunger. It is a bit of a pain to get in the correct position as you reassemble the unit.

I had no idea the space between the solenoid and the housing could be "spaced" with shims to govern the throw of the plunger. This could be my issue. There are no shims in place on the unit. My I+T shop manual shows them and identifys them as "cover shims" and shows two. No mention is made beyond that. Another parts manual I have shows them in the drawing and the description calls them both "dust cover". am going to try and locate at Hoyes.
Could probably "jury" rig something to test if that is a factor as well. This makes perfect sense, the further "back" the solenoid sits the further down the shaft the end of the pinion "throw" would be.

You've given me another angle to check out and I suspect this is it. But with problems like this, you are never sure till it is done functioning correctly.

Really appreciate the time you've spent on this.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Some times there is only one solution for a tractor/starter issue. Park it on a hill when your done for the night.

Gear trans only.

Where abouts are you?

 

[rScotty]

OK. I found some more specs. These old manuals I have often seem to contradict each other.

One CORRECTION. After looking at some other old exploded drawings of the YM195 starter - which should be the same, I now believe that I was wrong to say that there is a compression spring located within the solenoid. And therefore also wrong to say that the movement of the solenoid compressed that spring. It would make sense, but I don't think that spring exists.....I think I was fooled by their attempt to draw a schematic of the solenoid coil. If that is correct, then the only return spring in the system is that weird looking torsional one you mentioned.

Yes, that 3 to 5 would be difficult to measure. There is another measurement that might make sense. In the pictures below, there is what seems to be a measurement of how much clearance there is between the pinion and the stop....although if that is true then some of the text saying how to measure it seems backwards. Anyway, see copies below
rScotty

 

[Industrial Toys]

Sorry, I did not read every word in the thread, but have troubleshot (troubleshooted?) enough stuff in my life.

Sometimes it's about asking a lot of questions. That damage on the flywheel, might have been caused by the starter engaging with the engine running, for whatever reason. MAYBE, it has nothing to do with your problem. Just throwing that out there.