new/used/rebuilt engine needed for JD 4100

[coloradotrout]

Most Permatex RTV silicone gasket material is fine..

Plan to go with "Permatex® Ultra Grey® Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker"

On the original JD, it was grey in color. No idea if it was the same material. On the Yanmar it's red. Again no idea if it's the same brand, etc. Grey seems a bit firmer. Red softer/more flexible. But the age could be many years different. This is for a block spacer (for the JD pan), the oil pan, and the flywheel-side crank cover; and JD had sealant around the "tunnel" between front half and back half of frame. All other gaskets are paper, metal, pre-formed rubber between various mating parts, e.g. fuel transfer pump, governor housing, exhaust manifold,etc. For exhaust I may just reuse one. Others - deep in the engine, replace.

 

[dfkrug]

RE gaskets, the orange RTV silicone handles the highest temps, and can even be used for exhaust manifolds. I would use/reuse the steel exh manifold gasket if you have one in good shape (no sealants). Anywhere you see an O-ring type gasket, reuse or replace without any sealants. If you decide to use new paper gaskets, then you can use sealants if you want, but I generally don't.

Paper gaskets are used on the assembly line cuz they are faster than silicone, but not better.

Sometimes replacing a paper gasket with sealant results in a clearance problem, forcing you to use paper.

 

[coloradotrout]

RE gaskets, the orange RTV silicone handles the highest temps, and can even be used for exhaust manifolds.

Is your suggestion to just use, Permatex(R) Ultra Red(R) Gasket Maker Permatex (Permatex ultra red)?
I bought the ultra grey, Permatex(R) Ultra Grey(R) Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker Permatex, but really have to believe these are all about the same with minor reformulations.

I loosely figured the "grey" might be better for a tractor that gets bounced around and has a lot of vibration.

 

[dfkrug]

I suspect you are right that the various RTV formulations are similar. I would use the extra hi temp version for exhaust manifolds, if going without gasket. Since you have a metal gasket, don't use any sealant. Just use any color RTV silicone for the other places.

 

[coloradotrout]

How much of the fan should sit inside vs outside the shroud?

I ran it tonight for about an hour mowing. The temp light came on. At idle it cooled down. I had not installed the shroud because with the non-Deere water pump the fan is positioned lower and further to the left. I didn't think it would impact cooling as much as it did. I'm modifying the Deere shroud to fit. Alternatively I'd have to buy a Deere water pump as mine broke when I removed it.

Or maybe I should just fabricated a new shroud? Hmm... it would only take 2 pieces. One flat piece with a cutout for the fan, and then another flat piece in a hoop shape. But how do I attach the ring to the flat? (IDEA. leave tabs on the flat when making the cutout and bend those 90 and rivet to the hoop) Have I found my excuse to buy a Hobart Hander 140?

I need to post an update, but I have the engine in. It was not a simple swap. Deere pretty much replaces every part attached to the block. From the "new" engine, I have kept the injectors, hydraulic pump, water pump, and fan. Otherwise I think I swapped everything either because I had to have it, or the Deere part fit differently. More details on this later. I'm hoping those work, but TBD.

So far the engine seems to run ok. No smoke. Started right up. Sputtered a bit (surely since it was dry for months) and then purrs along. With no smoke, and I don't seem to detect any blowby, I think the engine is ok. My on-the-bench compression and leak down tests do not support this, but I'm at a loss as to why. It runs. Seems better than my old "smoker", so I guess I'll work it hard for a couple of week before the warranty expires.

Unfortunately there is an oil leak coming from the front crank seal. I should fire my mechanic for not replacing that before he put the engine in. I, uh, I mean he, replaced the rear seal, but for some reason decided to leave the old front seal alone. It sure looks I could get to it by just removing the radiator, but the tech manual suggest I have to split frame engine (again). I'd sure like to avoid that, but I cannot stand dripping oil after all I've been through.

I'll post more details soon. Any ideas on the shroud greatly appreciated.

 

[dfkrug]

A fan shroud is not hard to make out of sheet metal, esp if you have a welder. It is very important for cooling since your tractor does not drive very fast.

 

[coloradotrout]

A fan shroud is not hard to make out of sheet metal, esp if you have a welder. It is very important for cooling since your tractor does not drive very fast.

I'd love to do it. Any guidance? Yeah, I figured even with the fan running - that with no shroud - the air is not being pulled through the radiator. I'm trying to retrofit my original shroud, but should I ever need to replace the water pump, I'd need it to be functional! I think making a new one is the better approach. I just need a "hoop" to which the fan insets and then a "hood" back to the radiator. Conceptually easy, but not sure how I go about doing it. I have a stick welder but I'm lousy at it. Been eye-balling a Hobart 140 Handler. What thickness of metal?

 

[DerekShellman66]

Cool, thanks for posting!

 

[jonsstihl]

how much is the deere water pump? seems like a lot of trouble to fabricate a shroud when it is the water pump that is the problem fitment wise. if the pump goes out in the future do you know what p/n is on there now. get the welder you will not regret it even if you don't end up building the shroud. but I would suggest stepping up to the 240volt setup, I have a 211 millermatic and I love it (thank god for the autoset) but I sometimes find it a little small for bigger attachment projects.

 

[coloradotrout]

Pump is $400. I've thought about it. Just trying to find parts I can use on the engine I got! Lol. I don't recall the fitment of old fan and shroud. I think I can lay some parts out and estimate how deep in the shroud it fits. Some suggest 50/50 in/out. Some suggest 70/30.

I'm not sure the hydraulic pump is going to work. It's a Kanzaki PW1-C-6A, the Deere is-9A. Is that the same? They look the same. But is the -6A 2/3rds the capacity of the 9? I have not hooked up my FEL yet. Hard to find specs on Kanzaki.

 

[coloradotrout]

I have a 211 millermatic and I love it (thank god for the autoset) but I sometimes find it a little small for bigger attachment projects.

Thoughts on Hobart 190?

 

[coloradotrout]

Thoughts on Hobart 190?

Picked one up for good price.

 

[coloradotrout]

Moved the Deere shroud to center over the fan. 1" down. 0.5" left. Go figure. Fit pretty well, but still tripped temp sensor after 45 minutes. At idle it cools back down. Plan to move fan further into shroud. The Deere was further in. Hope this is really a shroud issue.

 

[coloradotrout]

Swapped out to use the original Deere pulley, spacer, and fan. Realized the Deere pulley is smaller diameter (means it will spin faster). Spacer also places the fan nearly 100% inside the shroud. Didn't want to remove the radiator, so had to loosen trans oil cooler lines and finagle things around to get the fan swapped (had to blindly remove/install bolts) and get shroud in-place. Need to post some pics, but imagine the shroud lowered 1" and moved to the left 1/2". Had to make cutouts on the bottom right for hose, and drill 2 holes on bottom for bolts, and make some hold down brackets for the top. All this to use the water pump that came with the engine (but Deere pump was damaged and new one is $400).

After all this, ran it hard for 2h and no overheat lamp. Checked with infrared thermometer near sensor. 180F at most. Generally 150-170.

Still got front crank seal leak and see if the included hydraulic pump is comparable (Kanzaki PW1-C-6A on replacement; PW1-C-9A on Deere)

 

[dfkrug]

It is gonna be hard to try to replace front seal without removing radiator.

Anyway, the hyd pump needs to be similar in displacement to the OEM, and the shaft has to be exactly the same. Also, CW or CCW rotation is important. If you do not have specs on either unit, you can measure displacement by taking pumps apart and calculating. Do an internet search to see exactly how.

All this assumes the same pump TYPE. I.E. is it a 2-chamber pump, aka dual pump?

 

[coloradotrout]

Yeah, for the front crank seal have to pull the radiator, probably trans cooler lines. It would have made a lot of sense to do my shroud rework AND this at the same time, but I really wanted to get it running to check out the engine.

As for the hydraulic pump, it's the same brand, looks identical, but has those different numbers on it. The Deere is PW1-C-9A. The one I have now is PW1-C-6A.

 

[coloradotrout]

Hi all. Quick update. Been running mostly OK for a good week know. Going to attempt the front crank seal replacement tonight. Got all the front end clear - radiator and hydro cooler coil. Fabricating my own pulley puller to get into the tight space. Coolant was looking nasty anyway, so a change is good. Also cooler hoses - all 6" of them on each side, need to be replaced. Thusfar I've run it pretty hard. Mowing in thick grass (like 4' high stuff) and up and down steep inclines (backing up those steep ones), and running a 5' tiller on pretty hard-packed arena soil. Side note: that 5' tiller is just too much for the JD4100 17HP. It's ok in loose soil, but not for my clay. I may try to remove some tines and see if 4' of coverage is workable. I'd should have gotten the 4' tiller, but *thought* the 5' would cover my tracks better. It does, but at 0.001 mph as the penalty. After I adjusted the fan shroud I've had the temp sensor go off once - while tilling - and after a few mins of idle, it was fine. I went back to work again. Not sure what that was about, but as I noted the coolant is pretty dirty, so maybe a flush will help. I'd like to fabricate an entirely new shroud with the offset fan that I have now. As is, there are some gaps around the edge and bottom that don't force the air to pull through the fins.

I also have - since forever - a tiny leak on the hydraulic pump line, the smaller one, right at the pump. Flirting with brazing. We'll see.

Here's to getting the front crank seal replaced tonight.

 

[coloradotrout]

I never replied. Crank seal was a breeze. Using the homemade puller I did not have to pull the engine, just clear the radiator and other front end parts. Dug out old seal; tapped in new. Been working since Oct 2020.

Now I'd really like to fix the drip leak on the hydro line right at the pump. Guess I'd have to partially clear the line and do some brazing (never had done). Guess I may just buy trans oil.

 

[sandman2234]

Glad the seal change went without a hitch! Brazing takes a steady hand and a little bit of practice, so grab something similar to that pipe before you try that pipe!
David from jax