220v outlet for welder powered by (2) 20 amp breakers

[crazyal]

The concept behind the Edison circuit is only used when just one of the two outlets are being used. When both have equal loads the neutral wire basically has no power running through it. I have electrician friends in Canada who do it all the time because it allows them to run one 12/3 wire vs two 12/2 wires to save money. I personally don't like the concept. I get it but my issue is what if someone moves one of the wires to a different breaker that's not on the opposite phase? Suddenly your neutral wire now has the possibility to have twice it's rated amperage. But I also don't use the holes in the back of outlets. I like a wire wrapped around a screw.

 

[Henro]

Contractors here use them to run both required kitchen circuits for kitchen. Can run both circuits thru 1 wire. Again...not on my jobs

A 220 volt circuit using a shared neutral is very common as you suggest. But there is no getting away from it totally. And it may not be a real issue anyway.

I would bet every house that is supplied 220 volts from the power company uses that same circuit design. Two hots and a neutral. Granted, if you have an incoming problem with the neutral voltage swings all over the place. But this rarely happens. Same for kitchen applications.

 

[grsthegreat]

A 220 volt circuit using a shared neutral is very common as you suggest. But there is no getting away from it totally. And it may not be a real issue anyway.

I would bet every house that is supplied 220 volts from the power company uses that same circuit design. Two hots and a neutral. Granted, if you have an incoming problem with the neutral voltage swings all over the place. But this rarely happens. Same for kitchen applications.

actually, it happens quite often. Ive had to trace down issues too many times over the years. It sucks having to open all outlets and switches and light boxes to try and locate a bad neutral.

 

[GeneV]

Well guys, yesterday I ran conduit in my shop for a 220v outlet. I would have much preferred to have the 220 for the welder in my garage instead, but this is the path of least resistance.

 

[BukitCase]

"this is the path of least resistance"

But no pun intended, right? :laughing: ... Steve

 

[GeneV]

Totally intended.

 

[BukitCase]

Figured it was; I have so much "pun" my family threatens to run away, but they still laugh between groans

 

[jaxs]

A 220 volt circuit using a shared neutral is very common as you suggest. But there is no getting away from it totally. And it may not be a real issue anyway.

I would bet every house that is supplied 220 volts from the power company uses that same circuit design. Two hots and a neutral. Granted, if you have an incoming problem with the neutral voltage swings all over the place. But this rarely happens. Same for kitchen applications.

actually, it happens quite often. Ive had to trace down issues too many times over the years. It sucks having to open all outlets and switches and light boxes to try and locate a bad neutral.

Gene made it clear he intends to use methods he like's while discarding those he find's unpalatable and that's his privilege. With that in mind,what I say is for the benifit of anyone on the fence. The two quotes above are examples of "good electrical information" you get from self professed "experts" on interweb forums. In post #68, I questioned why people jump into electrical discussions to hand out misleading information. As expected,I was told to go away but here I am again. Sorry Gene but I feel obligated to innocent people that might live with or next door to diy electricians. Electrical isn't complex nor complicated. To the contrary it is extremly predictable but must be fully understood before diving in. A little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all. That bring's us to why I point out the two quotes above. Neutral wires are NEVER used for residential 220 volt circuits. Neutrals occasionally share conduit from load center to an appliance which require's 220 volts AND 110 volts but it never come's into play for 220 volts used by appliance. Tossing neutral around while discussing 220 v will confuse amatueres and result in mistakes. Y'all wire things up any way you please,,,,,,,,so long as you keep everyone else at least 100 yards from your work until you FULLY understand what and why you are doing. Ok boys :fiery::muttering::mischievous::grumpy: let loose.

 

[GeneV]

Figured it was; I have so much "pun" my family threatens to run away, but they still laugh between groans

With puns there's lots of funs.

 

[GeneV]

Gene made it clear he intends to use methods he like's while discarding those he find's unpalatable and that's his privilege. With that in mind,what I say is for the benifit of anyone on the fence. The two quotes above are examples of "good electrical information" you get from self professed "experts" on interweb forums. In post #68, I questioned why people jump into electrical discussions to hand out misleading information. As expected,I was told to go away but here I am again. Sorry Gene but I feel obligated to innocent people that might live with or next door to diy electricians. Electrical isn't complex nor complicated. To the contrary it is extremly predictable but must be fully understood before diving in. A little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all. That bring's us to why I point out the two quotes above. Neutral wires are NEVER used for residential 220 volt circuits. Neutrals occasionally share conduit from load center to an appliance which require's 220 volts AND 110 volts but it never come's into play for 220 volts used by appliance. Tossing neutral around while discussing 220 v will confuse amatueres and result in mistakes. Y'all wire things up any way you please,,,,,,,,so long as you keep everyone else at least 100 yards from your work until you FULLY understand what and why you are doing. Ok boys :fiery::muttering::mischievous::grumpy: let loose.

Bud, you don't have to go away, but you'd be much more helpful if you learned to word your input in a more constructive way, you should work on that. Even with your first post here about GFCIs, if only you explained yourself, you woulda saved this thread 4 pages. But anyways, I'm becoming a "dyi expert" in deciphering what you're saying, so let's discuss your latest entry.

So shared neutral means 2 hots on separate circuits, hooked up to a 2-pole breaker with a tie bar, sharing a neutral, right? So let's say I hooked up those 2 hots to one 220v outlet, would it work or wouldn't it power a 220v tool if one of those hots has a neutral wire? You tell me, I honestly don't know.

But while you're at it, why would it be more dangerous than how an edison circuit is utilized? Aren't you pulling 120v in each leg of an edison circuit when you got appliances running on different circuits? Here's your chance to shine Jaxs, try explaining and HELPING instead of critiquing.

 

[Henro]

Gene made it clear he intends to use methods he like's while discarding those he find's unpalatable and that's his privilege. With that in mind,what I say is for the benifit of anyone on the fence. The two quotes above are examples of "good electrical information" you get from self professed "experts" on interweb forums. In post #68, I questioned why people jump into electrical discussions to hand out misleading information. As expected,I was told to go away but here I am again. Sorry Gene but I feel obligated to innocent people that might live with or next door to diy electricians. Electrical isn't complex nor complicated. To the contrary it is extremly predictable but must be fully understood before diving in. A little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all. That bring's us to why I point out the two quotes above. Neutral wires are NEVER used for residential 220 volt circuits. Neutrals occasionally share conduit from load center to an appliance which require's 220 volts AND 110 volts but it never come's into play for 220 volts used by appliance. Tossing neutral around while discussing 220 v will confuse amatueres and result in mistakes. Y'all wire things up any way you please,,,,,,,,so long as you keep everyone else at least 100 yards from your work until you FULLY understand what and why you are doing. Ok boys :fiery::muttering::mischievous::grumpy: let loose.

Jaxs, seeing that you are an expert in the field, I am surprised that you did not point out that the term neutral has been replaced by grounded conductor today. Using the term neutral should have been avoided, and replaced by grounded conductor in what l wrote above. I did not do that as I thought it would just confuse the issue.

If you think a grounded conductor carries no current from the power pole to your service entrance panel in most cases, then you better hit the books again. It only carries zero current when loads are equally balanced between the hot wires and the grounded conductor in a 220 volt circuit. This rarely happens. This is not rocket science.

Of course, with a 220 volt circuit you have no need for the grounded conductor. But the discussion here covered more than a simple 220 volt circuit.

Seems like the only self proclaimed expert here in this thread is you...

 

[WranglerX]

Jaxs, seeing that you are an expert in the field, I am surprised that you did not point out that the term neutral has been replaced by grounded conductor today. Using the term neutral should have been avoided, and replaced by grounded conductor in what l wrote above. I did not do that as I thought it would just confuse the issue.

If you think a grounded conductor carries no current from the power pole to your service entrance panel in most cases, then you better hit the books again. It only carries zero current when loads are equally balanced between the hot wires and the grounded conductor in a 220 volt circuit. This rarely happens. This is not rocket science.

Of course, with a 220 volt circuit you have no need for the grounded conductor. But the discussion here covered more than a simple 220 volt circuit.

Seems like the only self proclaimed expert here in this thread is you...

But you don't have it correct either, there is a ground conductor that is a SAFETY GROUND and is ties common to a driven ground rod at entrance panel and bonded to NEUTRAL bar in primary distribution cabinet..... The terms "ground" and "neutral " are not synonymous.... THE safety ground will always be a green wire or green wire with yellow stripe, or maybe black wire with green tape identification (if all entrance wires are basically black) ...The neutral wire will always be a return current carrier in a 120v circuit and will never be referred to as a "ground"...Also per code the neutral wire will be white and should never be used as a "hot" leg, but always at return....

The term 220 v is being pushed around here with a lot of misinformation as to the "Edison Circuit"......It is not a 220 volt circuit it is two 120v circuits with common neutral....Which is different from a 220 volt circuit that is a 3 wire (L1-L2 & SG) or 4 wire (L1-L2-N & SG) for a device within a appliance (like electric drier) that may have need for 120 volts also, maybe to run motor....

National Electrical Code - Multiwire Branch Circuit | Transworld Electric


Dale

 

[MossRoad]

But you don't have it correct either, there is a ground conductor that is a SAFETY GROUND and is ties common to a driven ground rod at entrance panel and bonded to NEUTRAL bar in primary distribution cabinet..... The terms "ground" and "neutral " are not synonymous.... THE safety ground will always be a green wire or green wire with yellow stripe, or maybe black wire with green tape identification (if all entrance wires are basically black) ...The neutral wire will always be a return current carrier in a 120v circuit and will never be referred to as a "ground"...Also per code the neutral wire will be white and should never be used as a "hot" leg, but always at return....

The term 220 v is being pushed around here with a lot of misinformation as to the "Edison Circuit"......It is not a 220 volt circuit it is two 120v circuits with common neutral....Which is different from a 220 volt circuit that is a 3 wire (L1-L2 & SG) or 4 wire (L1-L2-N & SG) for a device within a appliance (like electric drier) that may have need for 120 volts also, maybe to run motor....

National Electrical Code - Multiwire Branch Circuit | Transworld Electric


Dale

See, right there in the NEC, it is referred to as a multi-wire branch CIRCUIT.

CIRCUIT - no 'S'.

NOT CIRCUITS

CIRCUIT

As in singular. It is ONE CIRCUIT, NOT TWO CIRCUITS.

 

[GeneV]

See, right there in the NEC, it is referred to as a multi-wire branch CIRCUIT.

CIRCUIT - no 'S'.

NOT CIRCUITS

CIRCUIT

As in singular. It is ONE CIRCUIT, NOT TWO CIRCUITS.

Well being that it's 2 hots sharing a neutral, I would think it's circuit not circuit(s). It's like a dude married to 2 women, it's electric polygamy, I tell ya! Should rename it to the joseph smith circuit. :laughing:

 

[jaxs]

Bud, you don't have to go away, but you'd be much more helpful if you learned to word your input in a more constructive way, you should work on that. Even with your first post here about GFCIs, if only you explained yourself, you woulda saved this thread 4 pages. But anyways, I'm becoming a "dyi expert" in deciphering what you're saying, so let's discuss your latest entry.

So shared neutral means 2 hots on separate circuits, hooked up to a 2-pole breaker with a tie bar, sharing a neutral, right? So let's say I hooked up those 2 hots to one 220v outlet, would it work or wouldn't it power a 220v tool if one of those hots has a neutral wire? You tell me, I honestly don't know.

But while you're at it, why would it be more dangerous than how an edison circuit is utilized? Aren't you pulling 120v in each leg of an edison circuit when you got appliances running on different circuits? Here's your chance to shine Jaxs, try explaining and HELPING instead of critiquing.

Gene,I believe your intentions are good and so are mine. What it take's at least a couple of years to learn can't be explained in 25 words or less and it's foolish to ask someone to try. Just look where this is after more than 150 posts. Shine ? I have no desire to shine. Trying to shine is what some have done and it only lead to confusion.
Look at it like this. A man is sitting in the cockpit of an airplane idling on the tarmac and ask's how do I get this thing to fly? A surgeon can mark the spot to open your buddy for surgery and explain every detail on completing the proceedure but you will likly kill your friend. How bout completing a 1040 with instructions right in front of you? Few can do it so they hire it out,,,,,,,,,again and again. My favorite is asking how to give one's self a haircut. Compared to electric work,there's very little risk aside to making yourself look stupid. If it's money you want to save,give yourself hair cuts and see how well you shine.

 

[grsthegreat]

Gene made it clear he intends to use methods he like's while discarding those he find's unpalatable and that's his privilege. With that in mind,what I say is for the benifit of anyone on the fence. The two quotes above are examples of "good electrical information" you get from self professed "experts" on interweb forums. In post #68, I questioned why people jump into electrical discussions to hand out misleading information. As expected,I was told to go away but here I am again. Sorry Gene but I feel obligated to innocent people that might live with or next door to diy electricians. Electrical isn't complex nor complicated. To the contrary it is extremly predictable but must be fully understood before diving in. A little knowledge is more dangerous than none at all. That bring's us to why I point out the two quotes above. Neutral wires are NEVER used for residential 220 volt circuits. Neutrals occasionally share conduit from load center to an appliance which require's 220 volts AND 110 volts but it never come's into play for 220 volts used by appliance. Tossing neutral around while discussing 220 v will confuse amatueres and result in mistakes. Y'all wire things up any way you please,,,,,,,,so long as you keep everyone else at least 100 yards from your work until you FULLY understand what and why you are doing. Ok boys :fiery::muttering::mischievous::grumpy: let loose.

wrong, wrong and wrong. Neutral (white) wires can be used in residential 220 circuits...legally. As an example running a 10/2 romex for a 30 amp welder. Inspectors allow this with white wires blacked out. Use it all the time, and legal. Now under strict interpretation of NEC any wire under #6 cannot be phase taped, they allow it for residential. Another common use of white wire carrying hot load is use of 12/2 romex for a dead end switch leg. Phase tape or color white leg. Acceptable. Now for your Description of me a a internet electrician...i have 37 years as a calif and idaho electrical contractor to counteract that statement.

 

[MossRoad]

Well guys, yesterday I ran conduit in my shop for a 220v outlet. I would have much preferred to have the 220 for the welder in my garage instead, but this is the path of least resistance.

:thumbsup:

 

[MossRoad]

Well being that it's 2 hots sharing a neutral, I would think it's circuit not circuit(s). It's like a dude married to 2 women, it's electric polygamy, I tell ya! Should rename it to the joseph smith circuit. :laughing:

Nice! :laughing:

 

[jaxs]

wrong, wrong and wrong. Neutral (white) wires can be used in residential 220 circuits...legally. As an example running a 10/2 romex for a 30 amp welder. Inspectors allow this with white wires blacked out. Use it all the time, and legal. Now under strict interpretation of NEC any wire under #6 cannot be phase taped, they allow it for residential. Another common use of white wire carrying hot load is use of 12/2 romex for a dead end switch leg. Phase tape or color white leg. Acceptable. Now for your Description of me a a internet electrician...i have 37 years as a calif and idaho electrical contractor to counteract that statement.

I'll say this for you. You didn't waste time in proving what I warned folks about.
What y'all are doing in Calf. is not the question here. I cautioned about people double talking in efforts to pick fights and confuse newbies. Neutrals have never been used in 220 v circuits. Neutral is the function of a wire in a 110v circuit,altering wire color doesn't change the function,just indicat's what function it's SUPPOSED to serve. Grounds are found in 220 circuits but they never carry current UNLESS a current carrying wire shorts to appliance. In that case ground wire (normally green) bleed's off current to prevent property or personal damage (normally trips breaker).

 

[MossRoad]

wrong, wrong and wrong. Neutral (white) wires can be used in residential 220 circuits...legally. As an example running a 10/2 romex for a 30 amp welder. Inspectors allow this with white wires blacked out. Use it all the time, and legal. Now under strict interpretation of NEC any wire under #6 cannot be phase taped, they allow it for residential. Another common use of white wire carrying hot load is use of 12/2 romex for a dead end switch leg. Phase tape or color white leg. Acceptable. Now for your Description of me a a internet electrician...i have 37 years as a calif and idaho electrical contractor to counteract that statement.

I thought once you black tape both ends of a white wire it's no longer considered a neutral, it's being used as a hot.