Transfer switch

[Fuddy1952]

What you described is, as far as i know, not against code. It's quite common to have multiple outlets on a single breaker. Generator transfer switches are required to be designed in a way that it is physically impossible to energize the (assumed down) grid. But there is no transfer switch here. Just two outlets on one breaker. Totally normal. Now, what you choose to do with that outlet, like feeding generator power into it with a dead man cord, I don't know where that falls on the spectrum of legality. I would officially advise against it. Unofficially, if you know enough to even think of performing the prescribed actions, then you probably know enough to not cause an issue. But your audience may not, and may be getting dangerous ideas.

This part however I'm afraid I must condemn both on and off the books:

I don't know why they sell those male outlets!
Seriously, I thought of something else...and those male outlets are available with a cover.
There's probably room in that panel box for one more breaker. Wire that new breaker to the male outlet, leaving that breaker OFF.
Now that outlet has no power.
When power goes off...follow these steps:
1) turn main breaker off
2) flip ALL breakers off
3) plug in and start generator
4) flip just door and generator two breakers on
5) open door
Why wouldn't that work? It's simple, easy. Now someone is going to say...well a kid could turn male outlet breaker on...then open that outlet door...then get electrocuted.
But that's true getting hurt other things in garage!
Besides...they even make locking outlet covers.

 

[grsthegreat]

those male outlets are to be used only on circuits that have no source of power without a cord plugging into that outlet. an example would be a charger built into a dump trailer. you can NEVER hook one of those outlets into a breaker panel, period. how would you feel if some dumb, particularity stupid kid were to turn on that breaker. lets face it, there are some numb nuts out there. i was on one job where the owners kid. by kid i mean a teenager, was playing with my holehawg with a wood auger bit on it. he ended up twisting the bit up in his sweater and it took alot of work to get it unwound. luckily he didnt hurt himself. well guess what, he did it a second time about 15 minutes later. i had to kick him out of the building after telling his father. you really cant fix stupid.

 

[bigtiller]

It's just a garage door opener switch? Like my little doorbell button?

Yes, just like a fancy doorbell switch but with up-stop-down buttons.

 

[bigtiller]

It's an easy job if you know what you are doing. Based on your questions you should be hiring an electrician. If you are worried about cost get 3 quotes and adjust your expectations.

Adjust my expectations? What are you referring to, price?
Could you give me an idea of what an electrical contractor might charge?
Maybe I will duct tape a drop cord to the wall....not. :laughing:

 

[strantor]

I don't know why they sell those male outlets!
Seriously, I thought of something else...and those male outlets are available with a cover.
There's probably room in that panel box for one more breaker. Wire that new breaker to the male outlet, leaving that breaker OFF.
Now that outlet has no power.
When power goes off...follow these steps:
1) turn main breaker off
2) flip ALL breakers off
3) plug in and start generator
4) flip just door and generator two breakers on
5) open door
Why wouldn't that work? It's simple, easy. Now someone is going to say...well a kid could turn male outlet breaker on...then open that outlet door...then get electrocuted.
But that's true getting hurt other things in garage!
Besides...they even make locking outlet covers.

It would work. Either with an ordinary female receptical and a dead man cable, or with that wall mounted idiot killer. Heck, he could do this with one of the existing outlets without having to do any building wiring modifications at all. Yes, very easy. All you need is to make a dead man cord.

The problem is, it's officially unsafe, and most likely illegal. If you forget to turn off that main breaker, you will backfeed power to the pole, thru the transformer, and energize the power line with 7kV. The power line where there's most likely a lineman trying to fix your power outage. That's why transfer switches are required to preclude any possibility of the generator-powered sections and line-powered sections being connected at the same time.

The requirements for transfer switches are meant to idiot proof, and what we are discussing is not idiot proof. It's one thing when an idiot kills himself, but something else entirely when an idiot kills someone else. This solution leaves the door wide open to the latter.

 

[bigtiller]

I've never seen ANY garage door that doesn't have a release mechanism so it can be manually opened. If yours cannot be lifted by hand there is an issue with the installation.

My release latch is higher than I can reach but I bent a simple wire that hangs down just enough to unlatch and latch it.

As far as connecting a generator goes the panel interlock with an outside plug in is the least expensive way to go. That way you can power your lights and opener from one connection.

The installers wrapped the rope from the release mechanism around the lift arm and tied in into a knot so it wouldn't get released inadvertently. They probably figured nobody is ever going to manually move such a large door. It is 12'x24' and 3" thick with 8 thermopane windows in it.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Do the MATH! Most likely a home generator won't power up much of the community. And no lineman touches anything that isn't shorted out with a jumper. Always this mininformation!

Still, of course, you never do anything that might backfeed or at least be connected to the outside world for a millisecond before your generator breaker trips.

If we could power up the community with a harbour freight generator, we would have it made, speaking of energy.

 

[strantor]

Do the MATH! Most likely a home generator won't power up much of the community. And no lineman touches anything that isn't shorted out with a jumper. Always this mininformation!

Still, of course, you never do anything that might backfeed or at least be connected to the outside world for a millisecond before your generator breaker trips.

If we could power up the community with a harbour freight generator, we would have it made, speaking of energy.

It is not misinformation. It is regulation and it doesn't care whether or not you or I agree with it. I happen to agree with you though, the risk is small. But this comes from the same people who say your vehicle is unsafe if the windows are tinted too much.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Personally, I see FAR greater safety issues with many of the absolute JUNK (But somehow Approved) consumer transfer switches than someone powering up the lines with their back feed.

Sorry, but I just can't stand this mentallity of do something unsafe or sketchy and IMMEDIATELY people WILL DIE! Many industries take calculated risks all the times about acceptable numbers of DEATHS in all manner of circumstances.

It is MISINFORMATION to suggest that a small generator could power up much beyond ones own transformer, if the switch feeding it had tripped. You think somwhow your genny is gonna run your neighbors 200 amp service? Please explain how?

 

[strantor]

Do the MATH! Most likely a home generator won't power up much of the community. And no lineman touches anything that isn't shorted out with a jumper. Always this mininformation!

Still, of course, you never do anything that might backfeed or at least be connected to the outside world for a millisecond before your generator breaker trips.

If we could power up the community with a harbour freight generator, we would have it made, speaking of energy.

"BARC: Generator Safety" BARC: Generator Safety.

釘ack Feeding - a dangerous condition
Improperly connecting a portable generator to electric wiring can produce back feed, a dangerous current that can electrocute or critically injure you or others. Back feed into power lines from a generator could create hot power lines during an outage. Linemen who expect the line to be de-energized could be injured. One good way to avoid back feeding is to install a double-pole, double-throw transfer-switch gear. A qualified electrical contractor can install this transfer switch so that a dangerous back feed can be prevented.

In accordance with the National Electric Code, paragraph 700-6; "Transfer equipment shall be designed and installed to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and emergency sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment. Automatic transfer switches shall be electrically operated and mechanically held.

Also consider the situation where the downed line is right outside your house. Maybe you're at the end of a run. You could conceivably energize a pole transformer without energizing the whole neighborhood.

 

[strantor]

Personally, I see FAR greater safety issues with many of the absolute JUNK (But somehow Approved) consumer transfer switches than someone powering up the lines with their back feed.

Sorry, but I just can't stand this mentallity of do something unsafe or sketchy and IMMEDIATELY people WILL DIE! Many industries take calculated risks all the times about acceptable numbers of DEATHS in all manner of circumstances.

It is MISINFORMATION to suggest that a small generator could power up much beyond ones own transformer, if the switch feeding it had tripped. You think somwhow your genny is gonna run your neighbors 200 amp service? Please explain how?

consider the situation where the downed line is right outside your house. Maybe you're at the end of a run. You could conceivably energize a pole transformer without energizing the whole neighborhood.

 

[strantor]

Personally, I see FAR greater safety issues with many of the absolute JUNK (But somehow Approved) consumer transfer switches than someone powering up the lines with their back feed.

Sorry, but I just can't stand this mentallity of do something unsafe or sketchy and IMMEDIATELY people WILL DIE! Many industries take calculated risks all the times about acceptable numbers of DEATHS in all manner of circumstances.

It is MISINFORMATION to suggest that a small generator could power up much beyond ones own transformer, if the switch feeding it had tripped. You think somwhow your genny is gonna run your neighbors 200 amp service? Please explain how?

You're painting what I said with an awful lot of artistic license. Where is the attitude coming from? Have I offended you at some point?

 

[Industrial Toys]

YES, like I said above, and why no lineman assumes anything is dead. Or people are TOLD not to touch downed wires. And it would be a rare case, where the high tension lines might have been downed and lying on the ground. I give you that. But the odds, of someone powering up their transformer, AND their lines feeding their transformer are severed from the system, or lying on the ground, starts to become remote.

ABSOLUTELY, don't do it.

Actually, there should just be a $100,000 fine or twenty years in jail. And it gets me thinking that IF it was such a danger, why there wouldn't be. STUPIDITY should always be heavily punished, but it isn't and we get what we get as a result.

 

[strantor]

YES, like I said above, and why no lineman assumes anything is dead. Or people are TOLD not to touch downed wires. And it would be a rare case, where the high tension lines might have been downed and lying on the ground. I give you that. But the odds, of someone powering up their transformer, AND their lines feeding their transformer are severed from the system, or lying on the ground, starts to become remote.

ABSOLUTELY, don't do it.

Actually, there should just be a $100,000 fine or twenty years in jail. And it gets me thinking that IF it was such a danger, why there wouldn't be. STUPIDITY should always be heavily punished, but it isn't and we get what we get as a result.

There ARE fines for doing it.
"Backfeeding Generator Danger—Backfeed Danger| Norwall" Backfeeding Generator Danger—Backfeed Danger| Norwall

ILLEGAL BACKFEEDING
Backfeeding is a dangerous practice illegal in many localities. If you backfeed your home’s electrical system and injure or kill a worker, you are liable and accountable, and face a very real possibility of criminal prosecution for your actions. Further, even your actions don’t injure anyone, if the utility finds that you are backfeeding their lines, you may be subject to fines or the utility may disconnect your home

I don't know what else to say. I've already agreed with you that the possibility is remote. I wouldn't be afraid to do it myself. But this is a public forum that anyone can read, and anyone contains a whole lot of pure idiots. I cannot publicly condone this.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Sorry. Few things iritate me as much as Electrically based forums on here. Hardly, (I would vote) any other topics with as much misinformation. Just vague things, people with little or no experience, heard, beleive and repeat.

The wording of "possible" fines, is about the weakest of such warnings I have seen. Like, smoking in an aircraft lavatory, seems to have a mandatory death penalty by comparison. lol

 

[Industrial Toys]

I have no issue at all with people backfeeding their electrical systems at all. Just not backfeeding the lines. If you don't know what you are doing, are feeble in the head, or have others around that might mess up this process, DON'T DO IT. That's all I would have to say. Not going to start talking of killing or injuring people.

 

[strantor]

Sorry. Few things iritate me as much as Electrically based forums on here. Hardly, (I would vote) any other topics with as much misinformation. Just vague things, people with little or no experience, heard, beleive and repeat.

The wording of "possible" fines, is about the weakest of such warnings I have seen. Like, smoking in an aircraft lavatory, seems to have a mandatory death penalty by comparison. lol

I feel that, totally agree. It sucks actually knowing what you're talking about on the internet. Everyone is an expert and there is no way for those looking to learn, to know who to listen to. I imagine the same is true in every technical field; mechanics, medical (must be especially frustrating in those forums), etc. I checked into a fitness forum once to learn a bit about weightlifting. Those threads were one of the most heavily (ruthlessly) debated topics I've ever seen. "Bros" vs "fitness experts"

 

[Industrial Toys]

If I have little experience in something, I say so. I think it's more important to know what you don't know or might not know anything about about. Reminds me of my Lady friend. Always chiming in, (yes trying to be helpful) about things she knows nothing about, and has no interest in learning. Best one ever. Something wouldn't start. Maybe the Rad is flooded!

 

[grsthegreat]

Adjust my expectations? What are you referring to, price?
Could you give me an idea of what an electrical contractor might charge?
Maybe I will duct tape a drop cord to the wall....not. :laughing:

i install these all the time. Usually in the $350 price range.

 

[strantor]

If I have little experience in something, I say so. I think it's more important to know what you don't know or might not know anything about about.

Same here! If only everyone could get on the same page.