Power Wall Pricing

   / Power Wall Pricing #51  
I ran our well on 4K generator. 500' deep, with pump at 450' 1.5 HP. I would love to have NG at the house, but they said i'd have to give them a deposit of 1,000,000 dollars to start the engineering.

I like natural gas for cooking, heating, clothes dryer, hot water.... but I wouldn't use it for a generator. That would be relying on a utility in an emergency. That's currently something we don't have to do, as we have well water, a generator, and a wood burning stove. We really don't need the generator when push comes to shove. Yes, we'd lose things in the freezer and fridge in warm weather, but we have enough dry/canned goods to get by for six months. And I could take the top off the well and dip water out of it with a weighted pipe on a string if necessary. Hope I never get to that point. ;)
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #52  
We have a solar system with the Enphase micro inverters and a month or so ago they were promoting their battery system with all the bells and whistles at a discounted price. We called our dealer/installer to inquire about it and were told that the system, all installed and ready to go for our 2500 sq.ft., home would be approx. $19000 but they would have to send a tech out to check our system before giving a firm price.
This is on top of the money we already spent installing the system we have. No thank you !!
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #53  
I like natural gas for cooking, heating, clothes dryer, hot water.... but I wouldn't use it for a generator. That would be relying on a utility in an emergency. That's currently something we don't have to do, as we have well water, a generator, and a wood burning stove. We really don't need the generator when push comes to shove. Yes, we'd lose things in the freezer and fridge in warm weather, but we have enough dry/canned goods to get by for six months. And I could take the top off the well and dip water out of it with a weighted pipe on a string if necessary. Hope I never get to that point. ;)

Oh man we have hundreds of them running on NG in neighborhoods around here.
Couldn’t tell you the last time NG was interrupted. They havent ever even sent a notice of NG interruption as far back as I can remember....
My uncle was CEO of EXCELON energy and assured me only a terrorist attack on the main supply terminal storage on the Delaware River would interrupt the flow of NG. Of course that could happen, but you can only prep for so much.....
My whole house is on it. (2) water heaters, (2) furnaces, (2) fireplaces, (2) clothes dryers, 22kw generator, cooktop, outdoor grill and outdoor fire pit.
Dead nuts reliable.

Now electric is a different story.

I would only switch to diesel because the VS’s want to eliminate the greatest natural, clean burning resource we have, NG for windmills and solar panels, both imported from China
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #55  

So what’s your solution? Hide under covers? :laughing:
I mean really, there’s risks in everything. A nuclear powered ship full of Chinese windmills could blow up inbound in Baltimore Harbor, too. :laughing:
We can see the limitations of windmills and solar. It can’t be stored and it doesn’t work in no-wind or cloudy/dark conditions. That’s a LOT of hours in the day. Its also a majority imported energy. We don’t need no more imports. We need to do home grown energy that works 24/7/365 an employs American workers :united-states::number1:
 
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   / Power Wall Pricing #56  
Yes, there is a risk for anything. And there are limitations to pretty much everything. The sun doesn't always shine, the wind doesn't always blow, and thermal generators need servicing and have to be taken off line. But that doesn't mean that there aren't things that can be done to improve reliability.

The prime issue in Texas is the failure of the natural gas system. Not solar. Not wind. Wind was about 1GW of the 64GW of power online before it went offline. Texas, via ERCOT, chose cheap natural gas driven electrical power. After a similar freeze event in February of 2011, ERCOT was told by FERC in 2011 to improve their natural gas based electrical power generation by winterizing the natural gas system, and how to do it. ERCOT did not winterize their natural gas systems. In the wintertime, surprise, homes use lots of natural gas for heating, so there is increased natural gas demands from residential customers, on top of the demand from the electrical power generators. Now in 2021, ten years later, natural gas wells froze, pumping stations froze, distribution systems froze, and as a result a large chunk of the Texas natural gas fueled electricity production went off line. Lack of electrical power took even more natural gas off line. This disaster was a predictable and predicted event. Clearly there are now folks in Texas that are rethinking that.

I would suggest that the point many Texans are learning the hard way is that you can't rely on utilities 100% of the time. Electricity, natural gas, water. Nothing is perfect, but some are less perfect than others. Right now Texas is a great example of less than perfect, isn't it? My current electricity provider, who is also a natural gas supplier, is definitely less than perfect. Since I can't force them to make good (better?) decisions, I own two generators, and we are adding Powerwall battery backup to our solar. Would I do it if they averaged only 48 minutes of downtime a year? Probably not. (That is what the UK national electric grid averages. The US average is three hours, not counting weather events.)

Would it be better for my utility to put in batteries and improve their grid quality via investments in things like rapid shutdown isolators? Definitely! They would get a much, much better deal. But they aren't doing that, which brings us back to this thread and Powerwalls.

I have lived in a number of states, and I can say that I have seen the utilities fail first hand in most of them. We had a really dry winter one year in the upper Midwest and the frost went down from the normal 3' down to 8-12', freezing lots of water lines, ours included. It also caused the natural gas supply to go out, despite being "winterized". I don't think it has happened again there since, but my point is that out of the ordinary weather events, and failures happen with regularity. A facility that I worked at, which generated most of its own power, had two squirrels meet in the switching unit to the main grid. Bang! No power from the grid, and no power from the local generators. Luckily there was one switch in Delaware and they were able to truck it over and install it in something like ten days. Absent the one spare, it was forecast to have been a three to six month down time. Improbable events definitely happen. After the event, pest control and backup backup generators got a lot more attention...

More recently, one of the major electrical suppliers in Southern California that I had to deal with had some outages caused by tree to line shorts and put in rapid shutdown isolators, and their grid reliability improved dramatically. Common events. The prime Northern California electrical supplier (mine) was asked to add isolators at the same time but balked at the cost. The Northern California utility has since gone bankrupt, been convicted of felonies, and is on the hook for billions of losses. Which was the right call? In hindsight, the isolators look really cheap.

Risk mitigation is a trade off; less preventative investment, more failures, more folks in distress. Not everyone thinks through the risks, or is in a position to correctly evaluate the risks. I think that misinformation leads many people astray. Garbage in, garbage out.

All the best,

Peter
 
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   / Power Wall Pricing #57  
Ning, your post reminds me that I left something out - our well has a 1 1/2 hp pump, and is set down at 410 feet. I likely mentioned that to the PW vendor and that may be why he didn't think it would work for me. But again, I don't really know.
Battery system sizing is most concerned with what's considered "critical loads" (as defined by the customer) and the biggest part of that is the startup load.

Given my ¾hp pump would pop my 3.5kW generator's breaker when the other loads were on it, my guess is that it's startup load is close to 3.5kW... your pump being 1½hp it probably pulls twice that, so it would be too much for a PW that had anything else hooked up as a backup load.

Now, if you had two PW's, it could work.

There is a battery incentive program in CA ("sgip") which will likely offset a good chunk of your battery costs, especially since you have a water well.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #58  
I’d still take properly installed NG or nuclear for reliability over windmills and solar. The pluses outweigh the minuses. But theres always leaving the door open for technology improvements.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #59  
I’d still take properly installed NG or nuclear for reliability over windmills and solar. The pluses outweigh the minuses. But theres always leaving the door open for technology improvements.
I'd love to have a micro reactor for the neighborhood/town!
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #60  
I'd love to have a micro reactor for the neighborhood/town!

That's going to happen someday, but probably not in my lifetime. If we'd spent the last 40 years improving and dummy proofing nukes rather than shoving them under the table we would be in a lot better shape now.
 

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