Power Wall Pricing

   / Power Wall Pricing #61  
Many industries and facilities that are heavy NG users are offered a year round discount on usage for being "interruptible" during peak demand periods. They either shut down or switch to backup fuels such as propane or on-site diesel storage for firing boilers and such. The discount is considerable, 10-15% IIRC. At my last employer our NG bills averaged about $80k a month.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #62  
So what痴 your solution? Hide under covers? :laughing:
I mean really, there痴 risks in everything. A nuclear powered ship full of Chinese windmills could blow up inbound in Baltimore Harbor, too. :laughing:
We can see the limitations of windmills and solar. It can稚 be stored and it doesn稚 work in no-wind or cloudy/dark conditions. That痴 a LOT of hours in the day. Its also a majority imported energy. We don稚 need no more imports. We need to do home grown energy that works 24/7/365 an employs American workers :united-states::number1:

According to our government (the last administration, not the current one, so it must be true) most components of wind turbines used in the U.S. are manufactured in the U.S.
Top 1 Things You Didn't Know About Wind Power | Department of Energy

More interesting reading...
Wind Manufacturing and Supply Chain | Department of Energy

As of 2015, three turbine manufacturers provide 75% of wind turbines in the U.S.
GE 43%, Vestas 18%, Seimens 15%. None of those are Chinese companies.
Three turbine manufacturers provide more than 75% of U.S. wind capacity - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #63  
Yes, there is a risk for anything. And there are limitations to pretty much everything. The sun doesn't always shine, the wind doesn't always blow, and thermal generators need servicing and have to be taken off line. But that doesn't mean that there aren't things that can be done to improve reliability.

The prime issue in Texas is the failure of the natural gas system. Not solar. Not wind. Wind was about 1GW of the 64GW of power online before it went offline. Texas, via ERCOT, chose cheap natural gas driven electrical power. After a similar freeze event in February of 2011, ERCOT was told by FERC in 2011 to improve their natural gas based electrical power generation by winterizing the natural gas system, and how to do it. ERCOT did not winterize their natural gas systems. In the wintertime, surprise, homes use lots of natural gas for heating, so there is increased natural gas demands from residential customers, on top of the demand from the electrical power generators. Now in 2021, ten years later, natural gas wells froze, pumping stations froze, distribution systems froze, and as a result a large chunk of the Texas natural gas fueled electricity production went off line. Lack of electrical power took even more natural gas off line. This disaster was a predictable and predicted event. Clearly there are now folks in Texas that are rethinking that.

I would suggest that the point many Texans are learning the hard way is that you can't rely on utilities 100% of the time. Electricity, natural gas, water. Nothing is perfect, but some are less perfect than others. Right now Texas is a great example of less than perfect, isn't it? My current electricity provider, who is also a natural gas supplier, is definitely less than perfect. Since I can't force them to make good (better?) decisions, I own two generators, and we are adding Powerwall battery backup to our solar. Would I do it if they averaged only 48 minutes of downtime a year? Probably not. (That is what the UK national electric grid averages. The US average is three hours, not counting weather events.)

Would it be better for my utility to put in batteries and improve their grid quality via investments in things like rapid shutdown isolators? Definitely! They would get a much, much better deal. But they aren't doing that, which brings us back to this thread and Powerwalls.

I have lived in a number of states, and I can say that I have seen the utilities fail first hand in most of them. We had a really dry winter one year in the upper Midwest and the frost went down from the normal 3' down to 8-12', freezing lots of water lines, ours included. It also caused the natural gas supply to go out, despite being "winterized". I don't think it has happened again there since, but my point is that out of the ordinary weather events, and failures happen with regularity. A facility that I worked at, which generated most of its own power, had two squirrels meet in the switching unit to the main grid. Bang! No power from the grid, and no power from the local generators. Luckily there was one switch in Delaware and they were able to truck it over and install it in something like ten days. Absent the one spare, it was forecast to have been a three to six month down time. Improbable events definitely happen. After the event, pest control and backup backup generators got a lot more attention...

More recently, one of the major electrical suppliers in Southern California that I had to deal with had some outages caused by tree to line shorts and put in rapid shutdown isolators, and their grid reliability improved dramatically. Common events. The prime Northern California electrical supplier (mine) was asked to add isolators at the same time but balked at the cost. The Northern California utility has since gone bankrupt, been convicted of felonies, and is on the hook for billions of losses. Which was the right call? In hindsight, the isolators look really cheap.

Risk mitigation is a trade off; less preventative investment, more failures, more folks in distress. Not everyone thinks through the risks, or is in a position to correctly evaluate the risks. I think that misinformation leads many people astray. Garbage in, garbage out.

All the best,

Peter

Peter,
Sorry to get off topic.
I've been running numbers on solar here for quite a while. For us it never made economic sense. We'd never get the return on investment in a reasonable amount of time.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #64  
   / Power Wall Pricing #65  
Early Tesla cars 'phoned home' to unlock the car. When Tesla's server farm went down for a few hours, folks couldn't get into their Tesla cars. About that time Tesla added a key lock to be able to get into the car.

Not quite true.

Early Tesla痴 all had key fobs. The Model 3 initially required a smartphone but the phone could open the car directly over near field or Bluetooth. Later the key fob was added as an extra cost option. All have been capable of being unlocked from the server as you describe.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #66  
Peter,
Sorry to get off topic.
I've been running numbers on solar here for quite a while. For us it never made economic sense. We'd never get the return on investment in a reasonable amount of time.

I totally get it. I am sure that you ran great numbers. I keep saying YMMV, and I mean it. These energy ROI evaluations are very very local, and I believe that the individual details are a big influence.

E.g. We ran the numbers for solar in 2010 or so and it was a 22 year payback, maybe. If you believed the seller's forecasts. I didn't. So we passed. By 2015 the ROI on solar for us was six years, with less subsidy. It turns out to be more like five in actuality. With lots of shade.

Powerwalls are less than that for us. We work from home and not having power during working hours is no longer "get out the candles, and read a book". Ten years ago, we could have done the candle routine, but my wife's job changed. No longer an option.

YMMV....

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #67  
I've been running numbers on solar here for quite a while. For us it never made economic sense. We'd never get the return on investment in a reasonable amount of time.

Moss, I went through the same drill - for a few years I penciled it out and it did not make sense. One reason I delayed was because we have two meters and I had been told we would need two solar power systems. Then found out I could hook the two together - they call it aggregation - one is the server. Penciled it out again and with the 30% tax credit, pulled the trigger. Our system was just shy of $30,000, paid cash and got $10,000 back from the government , so the out of pocket was $20,000. Our electric bill for both meters combined was about $340 a month - but would have been much higher if we would have had only one meter as more usage kicks you into a higher rate tier - with two meters both meters stayed in the lower tiers - if we would have run everything through one meter our bill - we were told, would have been about $500 a month. And each year these annual charges would be more due to the annual rate increases we were seeing.

Anyway, now, with solar, we pay $30 a month as they charge $5 per meter just to be hooked to the grid, and another approximately $10 because they can - actually, when use is below a certain amount per month.

If we assume (with rate increases) a $400 per month bill over the next few years we figure we will have recouped the $20,000 in just over four years and after that it is all free. So, now in about 2 years and 9 months we will have our $20,000 back and free electricity. And a bonus is that we don't really worry now about the AC or whatever we use as we generate more than we use.

One quirk though, in Cali our provider will not buy back any excess electricity if you have two meters (i.e., if you are aggregating) - don't know why - it is just their rule. When I questioned this with our solar provider I was told it was not a big deal because they only paid a small fraction for your excess energy even they charge you many times that amount for what you use. I asked our power company why they paid solar customers so little and they said because that is the amount they pay for all sources of power they buy from whomever or wherever.

I know every situation is different but for us it has worked out and happy we have done this.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #68  
My understanding is that PG&E (electricity utility of much of California) pays you for exported power at the rate which you'd pay to draw it from the grid (which can be up to 49 cents per kWh depending on tariff)... until you've fed back as much power as you've pulled. Power fed back to the grid after that is paid at under 3 cents per kWh.

As a result, most installers aim for solar to produce 95% of usage.

When I sized my array, I kinda looked at our usage, and then went for more, because solar panels are cheap, buy and install more than you need if you're got room for them (and I went with ground mount so I have a lot of room), and also because if power is cheap you can be sure I'm going to run the A/C all summer long instead of sweating so much as usual!

I actually set up my conduits with +2 sized cable so if I want, I can add another 5kW array and still be within reasonable voltage drop; none of the other infrastructure needs to be upgraded either.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #69  
My understanding is that PG&E (electricity utility of much of California) pays you for exported power at the rate which you'd pay to draw it from the grid (which can be up to 49 cents per kWh depending on tariff)... until you've fed back as much power as you've pulled. Power fed back to the grid after that is paid at under 3 cents per kWh.

ning, that makes sense. We have PG&E. I just recall the 3 cents per kWh they would pay (unless you had two meters and aggregated) for excess generation.

I did the same when I sized ours - took the historical usage and then bumped it a bit. So far, all is well. And we found we are using our AC more now that we don't worry about the cost - but still love our whole house fan when the temps drop in the evenings.
 
   / Power Wall Pricing #70  
but still love our whole house fan when the temps drop in the evenings.

At the risk of derailing the thread - what sort of fan do you have? Our house has an effective fan, but it's in the hall right next to our bedroom and even with it on low (I have a dimmer-like switch which is appropriate for motor drives) it sounds like a hurricane. I'm definitely replacing it this spring, but wondering what to replace it with!
 

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