Educate me a bit on torches

[Richard]

The thread to bend 1" steel got me thinking about this.

Though my project is now done, I went to replace the blades on my flexwing mower. Prior owner said they were original. If true, that means something like 20 years old.

I'm a persistent little cuss..... ultimately getting out the 7" grinder with diamond blade and cut two of them off. I flogged, beat, heated, sprayed, cussed at the other four and they finally came off.

I had a 1 11/16th's 3/4" drive socket. Only had 1/2" breaker.... snapped a 4" Craftsman extension clean in half (when at the time I also worked my 4x torque multiplier into the equation)

Got to thinking that it might be much easier if I had "real" heat, over & above my 'plumbers' MAP gas that I use for soldering.

What kind of tanks & tips (as in ends of the wand for the flame) would you recommend? Also...what issue is there with this likely having to be stored either in the garage or, out in the woods in a clearing where we keep implements? (I'm guessing the wisdom would say keep tanks out there and keep hoses/regulators in garage, which strikes me as logical)

In that other thread, Smokeydog said "Too big a tip can easily draw more acetylene that can come out of acetone solution and media in the tank. Then acetone gets entrained. Causing all kinds of safety issues and damage to your equipment."

Can anyone explain what this means?

(trying to learn some basics before I decide that I want/need to do this....might be smarter/easier to borrow my brother in law every now & then....but I don't like doing that too much)

 

[Richard]

I've looked up the definition of entrainment,

"In engineering, entrainment is the entrapment of one substance by another substance. For example: The entrapment of liquid droplets or solid particulates in a flowing gas, as with smoke. The entrapment of gas bubbles or solid particulates in a flowing liquid, as with aeration."


So does this mean that liquid bubbles of acetelyn would be picked up in the vapored acetelyn (I know I'm misspelling that)

Anyway, and now you have the density of the vapor going towards the flame tip mixed with the higher concentrated liquid droplets and when they get to the combustion stage, it's going end with a form of a bang or suddenly large flame?

 

[Sberry]

Buy a larger set of bottles. 125 O and 140 fuel. This will let it run larger cutting tips and some limited heating. You definitely should get a real torch, I have an anxity attack if I get farther than about 50 ft from one.

 

[MossRoad]

Buy a larger set of bottles. 125 O and 140 fuel. This will let it run larger cutting tips and some limited heating. You definitely should get a real torch, I have an anxity attack if I get farther than about 50 ft from one.View attachment 710814

I've had a set of tanks this size since I was 18, so about 42 years. Sometimes I don't use it for 4-5 years, then I'll use the heck out of it for several months. I don't think I've had the tanks filled more than 4-5 times in that period. I did replace the regulators after about 30 years. It's one of those tools that most folks rarely, if ever, need. However, it sure is handy when you do need it.

 

[k0ua]

Real heat means a "rosebud" torch. BUT you can't just willy nilly go buy a rosebud and stick it on any old acetylene tank. The tank has to be sized to support the rosebud. It is not just a matter of the tank would empty soon because of the small size, it is a matter of how much gas can be safely drawn out of the mixture of things inside of your tank.

Acetylene is a very unstable gas. It cannot just be pumped into a hollow tank like oxygen or some other gas like argon.
Inside the tank there is a filler that looks like mud. It is diatomaceous earth. Yes Diatoms, those tiny shells left over after diatoms die. Then that is flooded with acetone and finally a certain amount of this very unstable gas called Acetylene is pumped into the tank. You never want to run the risk of sucking up acetone by drawing the gas off at too high a rate.

This is why the tank must be sized to run these high flow rate torches. Even a welding tip which doesn't draw near the gas that that a rosebud heating torch does must be sized to the size of tank that will support it. I only have one of the small portable grab it with one hand "refrigeration" sized kits. There is no way I can support a rosebud torch of any size. And can only support the smaller sized welding tips. I think my largest one is a number 3.

All of the information about what can support what is on the internet or your welding supplier can help you select the size of the tanks needed in your welding set to support what sized rosebud you will need to do major heating. Just remember that gas welding/heating/cutting kits are "dangerous". Far more dangerous than electrical welding or plasma cutting or induction heating etc. BUT like everything else that is dangerous, if you know what you are doing and follow the guidelines then you are on top of the danger factors and is no more dangerous than many other activities that humans engage in.

Example I use firearms, and reload ammunition. Both are inherently dangerous, and both can be mastered and used by knowledgeable people. You wouldn't give a person a loading press and a canister of powder and some primers, some cases and bullets and say "go make me some reloads" would you? No, they would kill themselves or you when you went to fire their unsafe ammunition. But if they were given the correct knowledge and they are "hard minded" people, you could expect good safe results.

Of course not everyone in the world is what I call "hard minded". Some people cannot do dangerous tasks because their brains do not function in a way that will allow them to complete these tasks in a safe manner.

 

[Richard]

Not sure of the right word, but I've seen how 'explosive' Acetelyn can be when my (machinest) friend had his tanks over to heat the kingpin on my backhoe.

Flame went out or something and the "pop" made it very clear that the stuff ignited "right now" with an explosion verses just an enhanced flame like O2 might have done.

Hard for me to describe but I'm sure that you guys know the 'pop' that I'm talking about. It stuck me as very violent, especially given the size of it.

Never thought about waltzing into a local welding shop. I know they exist here in town but have never been to one.

 

[k0ua]

Not sure of the right word, but I've seen how 'explosive' Acetelyn can be when my (machinest) friend had his tanks over to heat the kingpin on my backhoe.

Flame went out or something and the "pop" made it very clear that the stuff ignited "right now" with an explosion verses just an enhanced flame like O2 might have done.

Hard for me to describe but I'm sure that you guys know the 'pop' that I'm talking about. It stuck me as very violent, especially given the size of it.

Never thought about waltzing into a local welding shop. I know they exist here in town but have never been to one.

Well, if there is a knowledgeable person there, they should be able to get you squared away with a rosebud and the proper sized "kit" to run it safely.

 

[Richard]

When my buddy (machinest) came over with his torch, he said it was a rosebud.

It was my first time ever seeing one. My PRESUMPTION is that it would put a flame out that might be....for example, 2-3 inches in diameter at the nozzle.

As it turned out, I guess it was a small rosebud as it was more of a pinpoint flame when blue. The blue part was ...I don't know (and forget) let's just say that the blue part was maybe 1/2" in diameter at the nozzle, perhaps not that large (?)

He DID say that it was a smaller rosebud so maybe there are different sizes.

Can a rosebud 'cut' or is it more for straight heating? Or, does it depend on what you are working on? I guess a small rosebud like I saw could perhaps melt/cut through something thin but not cut through a 2" steel king pin..... however, a larger one might?

I know so little, I don't know what I don't know other than I don't know!

With the big International and JCB, having heat would have been advantageous in times past....so I know it will rear its head again. (some of the pins on backhoe for example)

I'm willing to learn, I'm a stickler for trying to be smart & safe.... what might I first look at?

 

[k0ua]

There are 3 basic kinds of tips. Welding tips, Cutting tips (torch sets) and rosebud. Rosebuds come in different sizes and they are made for heating up metal, but not welding nor cutting. They have pretty big flames, take a lot of gas and will heat up things in a hurry.

Welding tips look more or less like "L's" and have pinpoint flames and are made for welding with a filler rod usually, although you can heat up small things with a welding tip.

Cutting sets take more gas usually than welding tips and a fair sized flame out of several pinholes in the tip and has a extra mixing valve and lever to put more oxygen out of the center hole to oxidize the steel after it has been heated up by the mixture of ace and oxy. You start with just the mixture (neutral flame) adjusted and the workpiece brought up to the proper heat color then you hit the pure oxy lever that starts the oxidation process.

In fact skilled operators can even turn off the heating function of the torch and just let the oxidation process act as the heating source too as this process is exothermic.

Of course if the cut is "lost", then you will have nothing to start that process over again unless you light up and adjust the ace and oxy sources again and start the heating process over again. So most people just let it run even when the cutting process with the pure oxy is being done. Of course these tips come in different sizes and have different thickness's of steel they will cut and require different sized tanks to be safe.

In general if you buy/or rent large sized tanks that are sufficient to run a rosebud heating tip of the size you need, they will be just fine to run smaller cutting and welding tips too. Of course bigger tanks are more expensive either to own, or rent.

 

[k0ua]

This guy has forgotten more about welding/heating/cutting than I ever knew.

Cutting Torch Oxy fuel Safety - Setup and Use of Rosebud Heating Tips

The Right Way to Setup oxyfuel equipment

www.weldingtipsandtricks.com