Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors?

   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors?
  • Thread Starter
#21  
Thanks rScotty, I'm looking forward to understanding more about bare vs Flux coated vs bronze vs all the other metals available for brazing.

Now that I've pretty much got the question of the flame arrestors answered, gonna start another thread to document my steps learning oxy torch processes.

Been playing with the thing, it's going well!

Thanks again
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #22  
The most common brazing rod is a brass alloy and it has a lot of zinc in it. It melts at about 1600° F. Silicon bronze rod melts about 300 degrees hotter. Silicon bronze is about 3% silicon and 97% copper. Just adding 3% silicon significantly increases the strength over pure copper. It is stronger than zinc containing brazing rod.
When it comes time to braze the part make sure the part is fixtured well so that it cannot move during the repair process. You can make your heat containing setup with fire brick, red brick, or ceramic wool. You can even use dry sand piled around your part. Messy but maybe that's all you can get. After the part is well fixtured and surrounded with the heat retaining material make sure you have your rod and some powdered flux ready. Start heating the part and when it is good and hot throughout start heating the area to be brazed with the oxy-acetylene torch. Shake some flux onto the work and when the area starts to get hot enough the powder will stick and then start to melt. Heat the end of your rod and dip it into the flux. The flux will stick. When you think the work is hot enough rub the brazing rod on the work. It should start to mark the part or even melt the rod. This is what you want. Melt the rod with the work, not the torch. The torch is for heating the work, the part to be brazed, and not for melting the brazing rod. Don't try melting the rod with the flame and then try to get the molten brazing rod to stick. It won't. Once the work starts to melt the rod work quickly to completely wet the surfaces to be brazed. Rub the brazing rod into the work. You will get the hang of it fast and it will be fun. You will need to keep dipping the brazing rod in the flux as the rod gets used up.
It is important, once you start using the flux, to bring the work up to brazing temp quickly and then to work quickly. This is because the flux does two things: it cleans oxides from the metal and it prevents more oxides from forming. It does this by absorbing oxygen. The flux can only absorb so much oxygen which is why you need to work fast. Using too little heat is bad because it takes too long for the work to get hot enough and the hot flux will absorb all the oxygen it can and quit working.
Once the flux quits working the only option is to stop brazing and clean the flux off and then start over. Adding more flux to used up flux is useless. Used up flux often turns very dark brown or black and is called burnt flux for obvious reasons. Anyway, burnt flux must be removed before adding new flux. Trying to fix burnt flux by adding more flux is pointless. It's like trying to get dry underwear after peeing your pants by putting on dry underwear over your wet underwear. It just won't work. I'm really stressing this because using too little heat and burning the flux are two of the most common mistakes when brazing. I have done it more than once.
Other folks here are giving you good advice and I hope my advice is as good and helpful. Also, there are lots of good YouTube videos about brazing and you should find and watch a few of them. Then your chance of success on this job will greatly improve and you can show us all some pictures of the great job you did.
Eric
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #23  
Don't think I ever saw cast iron on a backhoe, cast steel, yes.
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #24  
Don't think I ever saw cast iron on a backhoe, cast steel, yes.
Yeah, I don't think its cast iron either. I think it's probably a forging. Fortunate!y the brazing advice is the same. And cast steel would be easier to braze. As would a forging. In any case the OP says it is cast iron so I will continue to go along with that.
Eric
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #25  
There is a ton of castings on backhoes. Many of them are cast nodular iron. It falls about halfway between cast steel and grey cast iron in terms of weldability. Axle parts, depending on the brand of machine the outrigger feet, outriggers themselves, some of the linkages around the bucket, ect are cast as well. The bucket linkages more likely cast steel. The outriggers are typically cast nodular iron.
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors?
  • Thread Starter
#26  
So that's the piece in question, it's part of the front hub. Not certain it's cast or iron, but the way it's broken looks like cast something. There are lots of cast pieces on these machines.
 

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   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors?
  • Thread Starter
#27  
The most common brazing rod is a brass alloy and it has a lot of zinc in it. It melts at about 1600° F. Silicon bronze rod melts about 300 degrees hotter. Silicon bronze is about 3% silicon and 97% copper. Just adding 3% silicon significantly increases the strength over pure copper. It is stronger than zinc containing brazing rod.
When it comes time to braze the part make sure the part is fixtured well so that it cannot move during the repair process. You can make your heat containing setup with fire brick, red brick, or ceramic wool. You can even use dry sand piled around your part. Messy but maybe that's all you can get. After the part is well fixtured and surrounded with the heat retaining material make sure you have your rod and some powdered flux ready. Start heating the part and when it is good and hot throughout start heating the area to be brazed with the oxy-acetylene torch. Shake some flux onto the work and when the area starts to get hot enough the powder will stick and then start to melt. Heat the end of your rod and dip it into the flux. The flux will stick. When you think the work is hot enough rub the brazing rod on the work. It should start to mark the part or even melt the rod. This is what you want. Melt the rod with the work, not the torch. The torch is for heating the work, the part to be brazed, and not for melting the brazing rod. Don't try melting the rod with the flame and then try to get the molten brazing rod to stick. It won't. Once the work starts to melt the rod work quickly to completely wet the surfaces to be brazed. Rub the brazing rod into the work. You will get the hang of it fast and it will be fun. You will need to keep dipping the brazing rod in the flux as the rod gets used up.
It is important, once you start using the flux, to bring the work up to brazing temp quickly and then to work quickly. This is because the flux does two things: it cleans oxides from the metal and it prevents more oxides from forming. It does this by absorbing oxygen. The flux can only absorb so much oxygen which is why you need to work fast. Using too little heat is bad because it takes too long for the work to get hot enough and the hot flux will absorb all the oxygen it can and quit working.
Once the flux quits working the only option is to stop brazing and clean the flux off and then start over. Adding more flux to used up flux is useless. Used up flux often turns very dark brown or black and is called burnt flux for obvious reasons. Anyway, burnt flux must be removed before adding new flux. Trying to fix burnt flux by adding more flux is pointless. It's like trying to get dry underwear after peeing your pants by putting on dry underwear over your wet underwear. It just won't work. I'm really stressing this because using too little heat and burning the flux are two of the most common mistakes when brazing. I have done it more than once.
Other folks here are giving you good advice and I hope my advice is as good and helpful. Also, there are lots of good YouTube videos about brazing and you should find and watch a few of them. Then your chance of success on this job will greatly improve and you can show us all some pictures of the great job you did.
Eric
Etpm, thanks for the detailed instructions, as well as the information on different brazed and fluxes. I'll be incorporating all that into my plan as I develop it.

I joke like I'm just a jackass that bought a torch kit and is ready to set some stuff on fire, but the truth is I'm studying this pretty seriously and have a few small projects to do to get used to the equipment and build some skills. In these situations I really appreciate all the information I can get to roll it all into a plan that works in the situation with the resources available.

Could probably take this to a shop and have it done cheaper and faster, but all this is something I've been wanting to get into for several years now. This way we've got the tools for next time and who knows, eventually it'll probably earn some money also. We've got two old backhoes that work a lot in season so having these capabilities in-house is very useful.

Thanks again!
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #28  
Etpm, thanks for the detailed instructions, as well as the information on different brazed and fluxes. I'll be incorporating all that into my plan as I develop it.

I joke like I'm just a jackass that bought a torch kit and is ready to set some stuff on fire, but the truth is I'm studying this pretty seriously and have a few small projects to do to get used to the equipment and build some skills. In these situations I really appreciate all the information I can get to roll it all into a plan that works in the situation with the resources available.

Could probably take this to a shop and have it done cheaper and faster, but all this is something I've been wanting to get into for several years now. This way we've got the tools for next time and who knows, eventually it'll probably earn some money also. We've got two old backhoes that work a lot in season so having these capabilities in-house is very useful.

Thanks again!
Yeah, that piece does indeed look like it's cast. It should be easy to repair.
Eric
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #29  
So that's the piece in question, it's part of the front hub. Not certain it's cast or iron, but the way it's broken looks like cast something. There are lots of cast pieces on these machines.
Looking at your part I see a good opportunity to make the part come out right. Since there is a large machined surface it is obviously important. It is also perfect for keeping the two pieces in the same plane. If I was doing this repair I would clean all dirt, dust, paint, and oil from the two pieces. Then I would clamp them well to a piece of thick, FLAT steel. Clamping well meaning in this case not just securely clamped to the flat steel but also clamped together, using the broken faces to accurately locate the pieces. Then I would vee out the break about 3/4 of the way through, leaving the last 1/4 to maintain location. when brazing I would make the bead proud of the surface the same amount as the thickness of the 1/4 left as well as double the width of the vee. This is of course only if you have the room. If the brazed assembly is then left to cool so slowly that it takes several hours it will be unlikely for the part to have warped, cracked, or pulled. I think you will do a job you can be proud of and will be confident that the part can be returned to service.
Eric
 
   / Anyone ever gas weld without flame arrestors? #30  
Best bet for a part like that is to remachine it after welding it brazing. But if you're careful enough it may be good enough without
 

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