Can all tractors flip over easy?

[LouNY]

No they have height limits which is just about the stock height on many tractors.
The height limit is set by the organizers of the pull or the associated pulling association,
around my area it is normally 16 to 18 inches above the ground some places 20",
usually measured while you are on the scales weighing in.

 

[SmallChange]

"When the front end of the tractor lifts, the rear drawbar of the tractor will lower. This is a function of tractor geometry. The higher the front end rises, the lower the rear drawbar is driven. As the drawbar lowers, the "angle of pull" and the leverage the load has to tip a tractor rearward is also lowered. By design, a load will always lose its ability to tip a tractor rearward before the tractor's CG reaches the rear stability baseline."

Tractor Stability and Instability

No other farm machine is so identified with the hazards of production agriculture as the tractor.

extension.psu.edu

 

[LouNY]

Been going to those tractor pulls up the road from you since I was about 4 years old in the 1970’s, back when there was a picket snow fence to separate the fans from the edge of the track, 20’ of bleacher seats and the rest of the fans where on top of pickups and cattle trucks backed up to the track. Plenty of beer and cops to break up the fights...but back to the subject.

…I think they can flip backward because it’s a dynamic load..rotational momentum is required as well as a change (lessening) to the pulling action/traction of the tires, happening at the exact right moment.

In a more “steady state” pull, you will often see the front end rise to an “equilibrium” height and stay there, defined by the geometry of drawbar, and axle heights (and front end weight and pulling force, etc..)

2cents

If your referring to the County fair yes it's just a little ways from me. I have had the fortune to attend those pulls starting in the mid to late 50's.
I can recall when all the pulls used a stoneboat one of the last years for the stoneboat with the larger tractors they didn't have enough weight so a line of people stood next to the stoneboat and as it went past you stepped on and sat down. Imagine how that would go over in todays world

 

[LouNY]

"When the front end of the tractor lifts, the rear drawbar of the tractor will lower. This is a function of tractor geometry. The higher the front end rises, the lower the rear drawbar is driven. As the drawbar lowers, the "angle of pull" and the leverage the load has to tip a tractor rearward is also lowered. By design, a load will always lose its ability to tip a tractor rearward before the tractor's CG reaches the rear stability baseline."

Tractor Stability and Instability

No other farm machine is so identified with the hazards of production agriculture as the tractor.

extension.psu.edu

I see were you are getting your information from, some is correct not all of is.

 

[npalen]

I don't recall anyone mentioning line of draft in this thread but it is as important as, and partially determined by, where the load is attached to the towing vehicle. On a trailing moldboard plow, for example, the plow's hinged hitch attachment points are very low to the ground. The line of draft passes thru these attachment points and then to where the hitch attaches to the tractor drawbar. Where this line of draft passes above or below the tractor axle, among other variables, determines how the tractor (and the implement) react to the load.

The line of draft, in the plow scenario, may fall very close to the tractor axle, and result in the front of the tractor getting very "light" or even coming up if the power and traction are sufficient. I don't know where the line of draft falls in most tractor pulling but its sure up high enough to get maximum traction and resulting front end catching a lot of air.

I recall, as kids on the farm back in the '50's, hooking a log chain to the 8N 3PH top link attachment and then using the load to pull a wheelie. Lot of fun but a miracle we all survived! I don't recommend it!

 

[sandman2234]

DO YOU GUYS REALIZE YOU RAN THE "NEWBIE", WHO WAS THE ORIGINAL POSTER OFF SEVERAL DAYS AGO?????
I am surprised by most of you, and that especially means you Mossroad, because I thought better of this forum! We were all in his shoes at one time and needed guidance with what we needed to accomplish using what we had available. Y'all gave him the impression that an 8n would not plow new ground safely. Can you even begin to calculate the number of aceage that has been broken with a plow behind an 8n since it was new?
We should have helped him realize what it took to operate it safely rather than going off into a rabbithole.
Y'all do realize that an 8n isn't even a trike, so why push the issue?
I will go back to my corner, but wanted all of you to realize what you had done.
David from Jax

 

[MossRoad]

I see were you are getting your information from, some is correct not all of is.

Which part is not correct?

 

[sandman2234]

Which part is not correct?

Y'all still at it?
Why?
David from jax

 

[MossRoad]

DO YOU GUYS REALIZE YOU RAN THE "NEWBIE", WHO WAS THE ORIGINAL POSTER OFF SEVERAL DAYS AGO?????
I am surprised by most of you, and that especially means you Mossroad, because I thought better of this forum! We were all in his shoes at one time and needed guidance with what we needed to accomplish using what we had available. Y'all gave him the impression that an 8n would not plow new ground safely. Can you even begin to calculate the number of aceage that has been broken with a plow behind an 8n since it was new?
We should have helped him realize what it took to operate it safely rather than going off into a rabbithole.
Y'all do realize that an 8n isn't even a trike, so why push the issue?
I will go back to my corner, but wanted all of you to realize what you had done.
David from Jax

Seeing how the OP stated in his original post that:
- he had no experience with tractors
- was concerned about flipping/rolling one over from what he had read before posting.
- he asked for opinions on older tractors
- someone mentioned to stay away from tricycle tractors due to them being easier to roll
- someone else saying they are not easier to roll
- I got into the discussing regarding why tricycle tractors are indeed more prone to rolling over. Scientific fact. Proven through many university studies and state ag agencies. Stats show it’s true. Stay away from tricycle tractors if you’re inexperienced.

It’s important information for someone with no tractor experience to know, the OP asked for it, so we gave it.

I hope he’s reading this thread, to see that there’s more to just hopping on and driving a tractor.

An 8N in this day and age, it not the best choice for someone who’s never had tractor experience before. Sure, it will work, but there are so many more better, affordable, and safer choices.

 

[MossRoad]

Y'all still at it?
Why?
David from jax

Because I think he’s giving incorrect information, and if he isn’t giving incorrect information, I’d like to know the correct information, so I can learn something.

 

[LouNY]

Which part is not correct?

Well heck, lets see. On down the rabbit hole.
The first major error is that is were you got you sketch showing the wide stance for roll overs comparing a wide front to a narrow front.
Which should not be confused with a tri-cyle front. The tri-cycle front is a single front wheel, made a nice cultivating tractor, the narrow front had two front tires with a narrow spacing between them, not quite as nice for cultivating.
That sketch is so far out of being correct that it throws the rest of the article into suspicion.
Then he did explain torque lift which you seem to ignore.

 

[LD48750]

I thought about buying an older tractor like an 8N, but then I started reading about them flipping over. I'm sure you can use common sense be pretty safe, but I got to thinking that maybe all tractors could flip? Was looking for advice on safety. I was thinking I probably need a sub compact now because they look safer, but I could be fooling myself.

It for plowing new ground with stumps and roots, mostly the leftover roots.

Edit: I have no experience with tractors, if you couldn't tell.

You have the right idea.
Common sense is the key.
N series tractors have been doing just what you say you want to do for 80+ years and will be still doing it after you are gone.
Just the number of them still in operation should tell you something.
Stumps & roots will be a challenge but doable.
The REAL advantage to an N is price and reparability.
They are cheap to buy & keep running.
I've had mine for pushing 30 years now and haven't rolled/flipped it yet & I have some hills that "could" be a problem if I did something stupid on. Back to "common sense". It helps.
The rest of this thread I just laugh at as it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with normal operation that YOU will most likely encounter.
Go ahead & get the N, it's a great learning tool.
Later you "MAY" want to get something newer when you find more uses for tractors.

 

[MossRoad]

Well heck, lets see. On down the rabbit hole.
The first major error is that is were you got you sketch showing the wide stance for roll overs comparing a wide front to a narrow front.
Which should not be confused with a tri-cyle front. The tri-cycle front is a single front wheel, made a nice cultivating tractor, the narrow front had two front tires with a narrow spacing between them, not quite as nice for cultivating.
That sketch is so far out of being correct that it throws the rest of the article into suspicion.
Then he did explain torque lift which you seem to ignore.

Lou,
That sketch is used on about every study/report on this subject. Be it single wheel tricycle or narrow front end with two wheels, the wide front is more stabile and less prone to rollover on a side hill. There are no studies or reports to prove otherwise. Statistics also show about twice as many deaths due to rollover from tricycle machines VS 4 wheel machines.

As I said before, there’s probably no convincing you of this. But you’re going to have a hard time finding anyone that agrees with you on it. There might be a few, but no one can produce evidence that narrow/tricycle machines are just as stable on slopes as wide front machines.

 

[LouNY]

In my mind there is considerable difference between a single front wheel and a narrow front wheel.
I have put many hundreds of hours on narrow front end tractors on steep hillside fields, and a few on a tri-cyle tractor.
I've also spent a great many hours on wide front tractors both 2 and 4wd. For equal sized and weighted 2wd tractors I have not seen much if any difference in actual stability between wide and narrow fronts when that uphill rear tire starts loosing traction because it's becoming unloaded it's pucker time. I've only had a minor amount of time (maybe 100-150 hours) on rigid frame 4wd tractors in the same circumstances, and they did seem more stable on steep hillsides.
When that wide front tractor is going across a hillside and the uphill tire starts loosing bite she is getting close to going over and that front axle pivot is going to be no where's close to hitting the stop, been there done that.
We used to routinely have to narrow up tractors to plow then space them back out for most everything else.
Until you start differentiating between tri-cycle and narrow front ends your statements have no validity as far as I'm concerned and you are spreading information that you have no direct knowledge of.

 

[rScotty]

Maybe the folks debating trikes vs wide front should try the same tractor both ways. Then they would have a better idea of what to debate.

Our old JD530 came with a single front wheel. That worked fine for the original owners on their flat farmland. The old 2 cylinder JDs are tall tractors and the original owner had it as a trike with a big cultivator slung under the body. After we took off the cultivator and started to use it for pulling a back blade it gave us a lot of scary moments. It got to be that every day was a near miss.

Not only did it tend to lift the front, but with a single front wheel if you drop the front tire (which you can't see) into a hole or off the edge of a rock you are immediately in a precarious position. First thing is that one rear wheel goes light. And then if one rear tire loses traction or comes up against a rock the rotation of the other rear tire will swing the front to the side really, really quickly. Fast enough to throw you sideways in the seat. I've had it spin 90 degrees before I was able to declutch.

It's that side slip - where the front end whips sideways - that is the big problem with a trike.
Most tractors don't do that, but with a tricycle, If one rear tire loses traction the tractor tries to spin the nose to the side.
Flipping or rolling could be a problem, but we know about those - and with luck you can see those coming and avoiding that situation is just part of nature of a trike. But the slide slip takes a person by surprise. Partly the side slip is caused because a single front wheel is so light compared to a wide front end, but simply adding weight didn't help much. There needs to be resistance on the ground.

So after a few years of being stupid, we finally figured out that we had been going about the problem in all the wrong ways. We bought a wide front complete off of a junked JD B. It bolted right up in one afternoon - even used the original bolts, holes, and even the power steering. Thank you JD for an inspired design! What a huge difference! It went from being a tractor that was unsafe even on a flat dirt road to being one that was trustworthy in the rough.

rScotty

 

[npalen]

Maybe the folks debating trikes vs wide front should try the same tractor both ways. Then they would have a better idea of what to debate.

Our old JD530 came with a single front wheel. That worked fine for the original owners on their flat farmland. The old 2 cylinder JDs are tall tractors and the original owner had it as a trike with a big cultivator slung under the body. After we took off the cultivator and started to use it for pulling a back blade it gave us a lot of scary moments. It got to be that every day was a near miss.

Not only did it tend to lift the front, but with a single front wheel if you drop the front tire (which you can't see) into a hole or off the edge of a rock you are immediately in a precarious position. First thing is that one rear wheel goes light. And then if one rear tire loses traction or comes up against a rock the rotation of the other rear tire will swing the front to the side really, really quickly. Fast enough to throw you sideways in the seat. I've had it spin 90 degrees before I was able to declutch.

It's that side slip - where the front end whips sideways - that is the big problem with a trike.
Most tractors don't do that, but with a tricycle, If one rear tire loses traction the tractor tries to spin the nose to the side.
Flipping or rolling could be a problem, but we know about those - and with luck you can see those coming and avoiding that situation is just part of nature of a trike. But the slide slip takes a person by surprise. Partly the side slip is caused because a single front wheel is so light compared to a wide front end, but simply adding weight didn't help much. There needs to be resistance on the ground.

So after a few years of being stupid, we finally figured out that we had been going about the problem in all the wrong ways. We bought a wide front complete off of a junked JD B. It bolted right up in one afternoon - even used the original bolts, holes, and even the power steering. Thank you JD for an inspired design! What a huge difference! It went from being a tractor that was unsafe even on a flat dirt road to being one that was trustworthy in the rough.

rScotty

I'm having a little trouble understanding the scene were one rear tires loses traction and the other swings the tractor to the side. In my experience, the tire losing traction will simply continue spinning and the other wil stop as the differential does its thing. What am I missing?

Edit: I believe there were a lot of tractors converted from narrow to wide front end as rScotty mentions. For one thing, the wide front with the pivot in the middle gave a walking beam action to smooth the ride. Then there was the John Deere narrow front with the oscillating front to rear between the two front tires. What was it called again?

Edit: Had to find it. Its called the Roll-O-Matic. Two Cylinder Vintage - Home | Vintage Tractors | John Deere | Restoration - John Deere Tractor Roll-O-Matic Front End

Also, if you're wanting to convert your Deere to a narrow front: Used Narrow Front Assembly fits John Deere 4230 2510 3010 4030 4020 2520 3020 4320 4010 4000 4040 4430 AR26823

 

[npalen]

By the way, it seems like there's two types here: Those who enjoy discussions and continue to post long after the original question is addressed and those who read all the posts then complain about the length and irrelevancy of the thread.

 

[Henro]

I ran out of steam reading before the end of the first page of this thread.

But from personal experience one time, I can assure everyone it is easier to tip your tractor on its side than you think.

Back flip, not sure.

Debate the theory as much as you like. But be careful. It can happen easier than you might think.

 

[rScotty]

I'm having a little trouble understanding the scene were one rear tires loses traction and the other swings the tractor to the side. In my experience, the tire losing traction will simply continue spinning and the other wil stop as the differential does its thing. What am I missing?

Edit: I believe there were a lot of tractors converted from narrow to wide front end as rScotty mentions. For one thing, the wide front with the pivot in the middle gave a walking beam action to smooth the ride. Then there was the John Deere narrow front with the oscillating front to rear between the two front tires. What was it called again?

Edit: Had to find it. Its called the Roll-O-Matic. Two Cylinder Vintage - Home | Vintage Tractors | John Deere | Restoration - John Deere Tractor Roll-O-Matic Front End

Also, if you're wanting to convert your Deere to a narrow front: Used Narrow Front Assembly fits John Deere 4230 2510 3010 4030 4020 2520 3020 4320 4010 4000 4040 4430 AR268

I think two things are missing. One is not surprising because there is a big difference between old fashioned ag field work and new generation compact landscaping tractor work & I didn't explain that well .... or at all. On those old tall tractors when the ground gets rough the operator tends to work standing rather than sitting - and with one foot on the diff. lock and playing it constantly.... So the use of the diff lock is part of what is missing.

The other missing part is I used the term "losing traction" too generally. I guess I should have said "changing traction" because the biggest problem with the nose swinging sideways happens when one rear tire comes up against a rock - not when that tire is spinning. The problem isn't when the tire is spinning, the problem happens when it suddenly grabs.

No, I've never used a rollomatic, but they look clever. I've only used a trike with a single front wheel. BTW, I thik ours had a cast iron front wheel rather than pressed steel. I'll have to check that - the old single front end is probably still there in the metal scrap pile.
rScotty

 

[Bobrown14]

One way to roll over a tractor = drive in snow on a incline parallel to a bank and start sliding towards the bank instead of moving forward. Even tho the awd 4 tires a spinning forward but the tractor is sliding sideways towards the bank. On snow spinning tires are no traction gravity takes hold and ooopsie.

**** happens really fast. I've been lucky so far. I've got ditches banks and hills that lead to the ditches and banks. Go VERY slow. There's no hurry.

Best to not take chances. If you think its sketchy its sketchy. Stop the tractor and re-asses you intentions. Sometimes another viewpoint is good. Or just call it a day. Take a sleep on it.