Hydraulic fluid

[UncleBuck1]

Lots of information... and I'm even more confused than ever!!!

Here's where I start: my tractor is a 2011 Massey Ferguson 2660 HD. The hydraulic fluid specifications in the manual are 10W-30, GL-4 and Massey Ferguson CMS M1143 with Permatran III recommended. Unfortunately I can't find any information on exactly what the M1143 specification means (and I probably wouldn't understand it if I did). There isn't an AGCO dealer within 100 miles of me and I don't see much reference to Permatran III (it may have been superseded by Permatran 821XL). I understand that there is a "you get what you pay for" component to all this, but I need 11.1 gallons (and plan to buy 15 gallons) and hydraulic fluid prices seem to have doubled over the last few years so cost is a factor.

So maybe to fine tune my original question, is there any real world practical difference between similarly spec'd fluids from quality manufacturers? I have found several fluids labeled as meeting the M1143 standard: Deere Hy Gard, Shell Spirax S4 TXM, Shell Rotella Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid, Chevron 1000 THF, Mobilfluid 426 and Lucas Universal Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid. Although I read the spec sheets for each of them, none state whether the base oil is dino, semi-synthetic or synthetic! I also found several fluids - Mobil Delvac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid for example - that list M1141 on their data sheet but not M1143. Summit has a great price on the Delvac but since it doesn't meet (or at least doesn't list) the M1143 standard, its out. The next lowest price is the Lucas Universal Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid at about $90 for a 5 gallon bucket - does anyone have any experience with Lucas? The remaining products all start at about $125 and up for a 5 gallon bucket!

 

[rScotty]

Lots of information... and I'm even more confused than ever!!!

Here's where I start: my tractor is a 2011 Massey Ferguson 2660 HD. The hydraulic fluid specifications in the manual are 10W-30, GL-4 and Massey Ferguson CMS M1143 with Permatran III recommended. Unfortunately I can't find any information on exactly what the M1143 specification means (and I probably wouldn't understand it if I did). There isn't an AGCO dealer within 100 miles of me and I don't see much reference to Permatran III (it may have been superseded by Permatran 821XL). I understand that there is a "you get what you pay for" component to all this, but I need 11.1 gallons (and plan to buy 15 gallons) and hydraulic fluid prices seem to have doubled over the last few years so cost is a factor.

So maybe to fine tune my original question, is there any real world practical difference between similarly spec'd fluids from quality manufacturers? I have found several fluids labeled as meeting the M1143 standard: Deere Hy Gard, Shell Spirax S4 TXM, Shell Rotella Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid, Chevron 1000 THF, Mobilfluid 426 and Lucas Universal Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid. Although I read the spec sheets for each of them, none state whether the base oil is dino, semi-synthetic or synthetic! I also found several fluids - Mobil Delvac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid for example - that list M1141 on their data sheet but not M1143. Summit has a great price on the Delvac but since it doesn't meet (or at least doesn't list) the M1143 standard, its out. The next lowest price is the Lucas Universal Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid at about $90 for a 5 gallon bucket - does anyone have any experience with Lucas? The remaining products all start at about $125 and up for a 5 gallon bucket!

I don't blame you for being confused, me too. But that appears to be a deliberate policy from the hydraulic oil industry The information is deliberately vague. One explanation for that might be that all the good ones are basically very similar.

I've been on this and other mechanical forums for over 20 years & have a background in farming and machines of all kinds as a mechanic, a shop owner, & a mechanical engineer. And I don't know your answers.

I can do what anyone else can do just as well - which is to go by experience. By the way, lets clear up one thing. Your MF 2660 has wet brakes, syncros, and maybe shuttles sharing the sump with the same oil used for the hydraulics. That means the oil has to deal with fiber friction plates and also brass/bronze parts.

So you are looking for a combination transmission & hydraulic oil, NOT a simple hydraulic oil. Combination transmission & hydraulic oils have different additives and cost more. I didn't check, but I think some of what you listed are hydraulic fluids and some are tran-hydraulic fluids.

I've seen lots of failures, but few if any - maybe none - were due to the quality of the oil. Or from mixing them. And that includes some with fairly old funky oil. Failures are usually either air leaks causing pump cavitation and surface pitting, sludged-up filters, water or condensation in the trans-hydraulic oil (looks milky), plugged air vents blowing seals, or because of using high viscosity oils in cold weather. Any of those things can destroy a system.

I have never seen a failure with any trans-hydraulic component that could be blamed on any good quality trans-hydraulic oil. For that matter, I'm not sure I've seen a failure that could be blamed on basic non name brand medium quality trans-hydraulic oil. A couple of times I've suspected some of the scuffing wear I've seen on pumps and wobble plates might be due to someone having used cheaper oil, but that is not an outright failure and I could be wrong, too.

What I do is figure I don't change my trans-hydraulic oil all that often. And much as I hate the high price, I'd rather pay a little more for the best and run it longer. So that's what I do.

BTW, nothing runs up the price like buying gallons of oil that wasn't needed, and I've somehow ended up with all these partial containers of expensive oil sitting around that may never get used. So my new plan is trying to buy only as much as I need. We'll see how that turns out.

rScotty

 

[Rockbadchild]

Lots of information... and I'm even more confused than ever!!!

Here's where I start: my tractor is a 2011 Massey Ferguson 2660 HD. The hydraulic fluid specifications in the manual are 10W-30, GL-4 and Massey Ferguson CMS M1143 with Permatran III recommended. Unfortunately I can't find any information on exactly what the M1143 specification means (and I probably wouldn't understand it if I did). There isn't an AGCO dealer within 100 miles of me and I don't see much reference to Permatran III (it may have been superseded by Permatran 821XL). I understand that there is a "you get what you pay for" component to all this, but I need 11.1 gallons (and plan to buy 15 gallons) and hydraulic fluid prices seem to have doubled over the last few years so cost is a factor.

So maybe to fine tune my original question, is there any real world practical difference between similarly spec'd fluids from quality manufacturers? I have found several fluids labeled as meeting the M1143 standard: Deere Hy Gard, Shell Spirax S4 TXM, Shell Rotella Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid, Chevron 1000 THF, Mobilfluid 426 and Lucas Universal Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid. Although I read the spec sheets for each of them, none state whether the base oil is dino, semi-synthetic or synthetic! I also found several fluids - Mobil Delvac Tractor Hydraulic Fluid for example - that list M1141 on their data sheet but not M1143. Summit has a great price on the Delvac but since it doesn't meet (or at least doesn't list) the M1143 standard, its out. The next lowest price is the Lucas Universal Hydraulic and Transmission Fluid at about $90 for a 5 gallon bucket - does anyone have any experience with Lucas? The remaining products all start at about $125 and up for a 5 gallon bucket!

permatran III is fully synthetic and Permatran 821XL is semi synthetic

I am no expert in hydraulic oil but personally as long as it is fully synthetic oil (since that's what your tractor recommendation is) I would use it. This thread below might help, in this thread there is some folks who advise to stay away from the ''universal'' brand and stay with premium brands... as Ray66V pointed out on the 6th comments from the beginning (see snapshot below)... to me there is nothing wrong with the universal label brand but he might have a point ... Good luck

Transmission/hydraulic fluid alternative to Permatran III

Yeah, I'm in between 2 dealers and both are about 100 miles round trip. That's why I was hoping the Traveller brand or Coastal/640 oz. Multitrac tractor fluid Coastal/640 oz. Multitrac tractor fluid (42909) | Hydraulic Fluid | AutoZone.com would work.

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[Rockbadchild]

Your MF 2660 has wet brakes, syncros, and maybe shuttles sharing the sump with the same oil used for the hydraulics. That means the oil has to deal with fiber friction plates and also brass/bronze parts.

So you are looking for a combination transmission & hydraulic oil, NOT a simple hydraulic oil. Combination transmission & hydraulic oils have different additives and cost more. I didn't check, but I think some of what you listed are hydraulic fluids and some are tran-hydraulic fluids.


rScotty

Very important detail good job pointing that out for Ops ....

 

[JWR]

Uncle Buck -- the more I hear the more I see you and I are in the same boat. You put about 500 hrs on your 2660 in 11 years. I've put about 600 hrs on my 2660 in those same 11 years. You are 75 or 100 miles or so from the nearest MF dealer and 50 from your tractor. I'm 330 from my tractor and it is about 65 mi from the nearest dealer. etc. etc. A lot of commonality it seems.

Since I have only put 600 hrs on mine in 11 years and since I am 79 years old I have a firm plan: NEVER to change my hydraulic oil. I think it will run longer than I will without trouble. I do change my hydraulic oil filter which is worth doing I think. The filters are pricey but I can stand that. In your situation I would definitely get to the bottom of your stiff/hard to move Position Control before worrying about replacing fluids. I suppose it is even conceivable there is debris of some sort in your hydraulic fluid that got stuck in a bad place and is causing your 3pt lift issues (??)

 

[Rockbadchild]

Uncle Buck -- the more I hear the more I see you and I are in the same boat. You put about 500 hrs on your 2660 in 11 years. I've put about 600 hrs on my 2660 in those same 11 years. You are 75 or 100 miles or so from the nearest MF dealer and 50 from your tractor. I'm 330 from my tractor and it is about 65 mi from the nearest dealer. etc. etc. A lot of commonality it seems.

Since I have only put 600 hrs on mine in 11 years and since I am 79 years old I have a firm plan: NEVER to change my hydraulic oil. I think it will run longer than I will without trouble. I do change my hydraulic oil filter which is worth doing I think. The filters are pricey but I can stand that. In your situation I would definitely get to the bottom of your stiff/hard to move Position Control before worrying about replacing fluids. I suppose it is even conceivable there is debris of some sort in your hydraulic fluid that got stuck in a bad place and is causing your 3pt lift issues (??)

This is a terrible advise you are better to put sub standard oil then using depleted oil.

What Happens If Your Hydraulic System Is Still Running with Old Oil? - M＆M Hydraulic Company

Hydraulic systems depend on clean, viscous fluid to operate correctly. Learn what happens if your hydraulic system is running with old oil.

www.mmhydraulic.com

 

[JWR]

This is a terrible advise you are better to put sub standard oil then using depleted oil.

What Happens If Your Hydraulic System Is Still Running with Old Oil? - M＆M Hydraulic Company

Hydraulic systems depend on clean, viscous fluid to operate correctly. Learn what happens if your hydraulic system is running with old oil.

www.mmhydraulic.com

Who decided when oil is "depleted?" What % of tractors out there had their hydraulic oil replaced at the recommended intervals do you suppose ? I wager it is a very low number.

 

[Shenandoah MF1760]

I would stick with what your owner's manual says, you can never go wrong that way and it takes away some excuses that dealerships/mechanics have at their disposal for claiming why something failed.

Many oils are similar, but the additives can make or break a system especially when it comes to seals. Years (and years...) ago I ruined a hydraulic clutch system in a '60 English Ford by using the wrong fluid. It ate all the seals up, and the slave cylinder was made of unobtainium. Goodbye car.

The difference between sales and marketing is that sales don't realize they're lying. And really, is $150 for 5 gallons and peace of mind that big of a difference? Sometimes we're penny wise and pound foolish, as the trivet in Mom's kitchen used to say.

 

[California]

I replaced the fluid and filter when I bought the used 3-point backhoe. It has its own separate sump.

Then I replaced the fluid and filter after 10 years. The fluid came out clean, lightly tinted, no water. I put a sample in a jar. 2 years later that sample hasn't changed, no layers or sediment in the bottom. This backhoe is used only a few hours per year to remove orchard stumps. Seems to me that fluid could have stayed in there indefinitely.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Who decided when oil is "depleted?" What % of tractors out there had their hydraulic oil replaced at the recommended intervals do you suppose ? I wager it is a very low number.

good question... 5030 mentioned that he send his oil out to Blackstone Labs for analysis so he knows the % of life left ... I ask him to elaborate on the process but hasn't came back to us yet... I personally do change my oil every 400 to 500 hours (400h is recommended in my owner manual) and you actually see the color changing form clear to murky brown at these hours in the eye glass port so that indicate the oil is been depleted.

I couldn't care less about what percentage of tractor out there who gets services at their recommended hours but I can assure you mine dose, a good advise is to do your maintenance as your owner manual recommendation. You are in title to not do so but I also am to point out it is not a good advise.

 

[Redlands Okie]

As others have pointed out, the oil is only a part of the fluids package of components that protect your equipment from wear. Some of the fluids are sure pricy. Just keep in mind it’s a lot cheaper than the repair bill or replacement cost from trying to save money. Save a hundred maybe. Maybe spend thousands as a result.

 

[UncleBuck1]

I would stick with what your owner's manual says, you can never go wrong that way

That's what I'm trying to work out; the specifications in the manual says 10W-30 / GLS-4 / Massey Ferguson CMS M1143... and then there's an additional column that recommends Permatran III. The problem is I can't find Permatran III!

 

[DMW]

Lots of information... and I'm even more confused than ever!!!

Don't over think it. Use whays available locally if possible. HyGard J20C or Kubota SUDT2 are excellent oils, you will never have to question if you bought the right one. Only buy what you need. Most of that 3rd partially used 5 gallon pail will just collect condensation. 1 or 2 1/2 gallon container instead.

 

[Surshot]

A true Pay me now, pay me later deal.

 

[Williy]

I have never had any problems with condensation
in 5 gallon cans of oil. and some of them are over
3 years old. Al tho I prefer to purchase the case lots
with the 2.5 gal containers on sale

willy

 

[JWR]

good question... 5030 mentioned that he send his oil out to Blackstone Labs for analysis so he knows the % of life left ... I ask him to elaborate on the process but hasn't came back to us yet... I personally do change my oil every 400 to 500 hours (400h is recommended in my owner manual) and you actually see the color changing form clear to murky brown at these hours in the eye glass port so that indicate the oil is been depleted.

I couldn't care less about what percentage of tractor out there who gets services at their recommended hours but I can assure you mine dose, a good advise is to do your maintenance as your owner manual recommendation. You are in title to not do so but I also am to point out it is not a good advise.

Lubricant analysis is a highly refined and extremely useful technology developed to the extreme in our Department of Defense. All the services use it. Failure prediction. Failure prevention, diagnosis of an incredible array of ailments. But us duffers operating farm tractors have little/no ability (or need) to get into such expensive and sophisticated tools. It may be that 5030 has found a practical source for such assists (?) I'm sure he will let us know.

By the way, to me hydraulic fluid in a tractor is primarily a hydraulic fluid and only secondarily a lubricant. Sure it is very nice to have it with lubricating qualities, some cleaning characteristics, etc. but in a lot of ways it may as well be water or kerosene or any non-compressible fluid. Brake fluid is an example.

 

[priberc]

I’m about to hit 500 hours on my clock on my MF 2660HD so its about time to change my hydraulic oil. The tractor holds 11 gallons of hydraulic fluid and with current prices this is not a cheap job!

For my tractor the relevant spec is M1143 (MF Permatran iii recommended); will any fluid that meets or exceeds this spec work? Is there any real world difference between fluids assuming they meet M1143 specs?

"will any oil fluid that meets or exceeds that spec work"....yes. If the oil meets spec it meets spec.....period. If you buy pricier oils they may have additive packages in them that will add to the life of the oil and be even easier on any seals.
If it meets the manufacturers specifications it meets specifications

 

[Rockbadchild]

Lubricant analysis is a highly refined and extremely useful technology developed to the extreme in our Department of Defense. All the services use it. Failure prediction. Failure prevention, diagnosis of an incredible array of ailments. But us duffers operating farm tractors have little/no ability (or need) to get into such expensive and sophisticated tools. It may be that 5030 has found a practical source for such assists (?) I'm sure he will let us know.

By the way, to me hydraulic fluid in a tractor is primarily a hydraulic fluid and only secondarily a lubricant. Sure it is very nice to have it with lubricating qualities, some cleaning characteristics, etc. but in a lot of ways it may as well be water or kerosene or any non-compressible fluid. Brake fluid is an example.

I get your point and agree to a extent but depleted oil will generate more heat, pumping oil that is too hot and that has metal particles in it would damage the hydraulic pump or shorten its life. Other than that I agree with you but we are not only talking about hydraulics, we are talking about hydrostatic and transmission fluid so good lubrication, viscosity and the ability to absorb impurities is paramount in this case. You simply loose all of these properties with depleted oil.

 

[JWR]

I get your point and agree to a extent but depleted oil will generate more heat, pumping oil that is too hot and that has metal particles in it would damage the hydraulic pump or shorten its life. Other than that I agree with you but we are not only talking about hydraulics, we are talking about hydrostatic and transmission fluid so good lubrication, viscosity and the ability to absorb impurities is paramount in this case. You simply loose all of these properties with depleted oil.

This tractor is not hydrostatic drive. The basic design features (using the transmission oil to also be the hydraulic reservoir, etc.) are decades old and been around long before most of the currently available fluids. The transmission/chassis fluid is multi-use and covering a multitude of sins and very handy that it can serve as a pretty large sump for hydraulic purposes. Lubrication (and in very old oil, impurities) do of course matter. I have yet to hear how to test for, or know, that one is dealing with "depleted" oil or what exactly depleted oil is. Hours on the tractor give at least a reference point better than nothing I guess. Hopefully 5030 will enlighten us.

This causes me to wonder -- were the old Fords and Fergusons EVER recommended for replacing their entire sump load of oil ?

 

[rScotty]

good question... 5030 mentioned that he send his oil out to Blackstone Labs for analysis so he knows the % of life left ... I ask him to elaborate on the process but hasn't came back to us yet... I personally do change my oil every 400 to 500 hours (400h is recommended in my owner manual) and you actually see the color changing form clear to murky brown at these hours in the eye glass port so that indicate the oil is been depleted.

I couldn't care less about what percentage of tractor out there who gets services at their recommended hours but I can assure you mine dose, a good advise is to do your maintenance as your owner manual recommendation. You are in title to not do so but I also am to point out it is not a good advise.

I can see the advantage of lab tests for engine oil because the orignal values for the ingredients in the oils are known, and the wear products can be calculated from that. But for hydraulic and trans-hydraulic fluid lab tests are a different animal. It's different because unlike engine oils, those hydraulic oil formulations are trade secrets as to base oil, refining, and the types and amounts of additives.

That limits what a lab can determine. A lab could comment on some wear products, but not all of the metals or materials. And I don't see how they could comment on remaining life at all without knowing the starting values.

I kind of like the approach that JWR has back in message #25. Maybe because its a lot like my own. I buy the best trans-hydraulic oil that I can. And then.....

I CHECK THE LEVEL OFTEN, and while doing that I sometimes put a drop on a piece of blotter paper to examine more closely. Any large amount of water or metal is obvious. Other than that, unless the tractor has been sneaking off at night doing heavy construction I figure it's good to just change a filter now and then. If a person is really concerned about additive depletion, pull a gallon or two of oil out through the filler port with a drill pump. Then refill with new oil that has new additives.

Surely that program is good enough for a medium duty machine. I'm not working mine all that hard anyway, but you bet if I was working for the tractor manufacturer I'd do it differently. In that case if I didn't duck fast enough and got tasked with writing the service interval specs I would have to assume worse case duty and write specs accordingly. And that just isn't the case with mine... or JWRs.... or most of us.

rScotty