TC33 Starter Problem

[Noytheyah]

Voltage drop tests only work during high current such as the starter actually turning. based on the amount of work done, and the fuses blowing. I would disconnect literally everything in the start circuit and run direct wires to a battery, and work your way back

I’ve done that, I’ve isolated the starter from the tractors wiring and still have the same issue. The only way I can get the old or new one to function properly is if it’s physically off the tractor

 

[LittleBill21]

Buy a dc amp clamp on meter, and put it on the line, since your having some kind of shorting issue, maybe the short is taking the majority of the power from the starter, which only happens once its somehow mounted, sorry, this is a bit of a mystery right now, but something is taking your power away, i would check the amperage just with it hooked up and see if its somehow shorting from it.

 

[Noytheyah]

Buy a dc amp clamp on meter, and put it on the line, since your having some kind of shorting issue, maybe the short is taking the majority of the power from the starter, which only happens once its somehow mounted, sorry, this is a bit of a mystery right now, but something is taking your power away, i would check the amperage just with it hooked up and see if its somehow shorting from it.

I’ve got one on my multi meter it’s drawing a max of 78amps. Do you know where can I find the spec on this? Turning on the glow plugs draws about 30ish amps. When I disconnect the glow plug relay starting draws about 50 amps.

 

[Noytheyah]

As if I don’t have enough difficulty trying to figure this mess out, one more issue that might be playing a role in this. My tractor is actually a TC33S. The best I can tell it’s a mid level model between the TC33 and TC33D. So, as I’m going through the wiring checking for any anomalies, and my wiring doesn’t exactly match my shop manual. The diagram that someone posted earlier seems a bit closer to mine but still different. For example, in the book the glow plug circuit starts at the ignition switch and travels directly to the glow plug bus. Mine goes to a relay then to the bus. Also, the HM13 wire is Orange in the book, mine is brown.

 

[Noytheyah]

Buy a dc amp clamp on meter, and put it on the line, since your having some kind of shorting issue, maybe the short is taking the majority of the power from the starter, which only happens once its somehow mounted, sorry, this is a bit of a mystery right now, but something is taking your power away, i would check the amperage just with it hooked up and see if its somehow shorting from it.

Ok I think I’ve done this right. My starter is 1.7kw 1700/12=142. So my question is, would 142 be the max or the rated amps for the starter? As of now I’m pulling half or less than that.

 

[LittleBill21]

It does not matter the spec, what you need to determine, is the amperage on those wire at idle with nothing running (to rule out some kind of short)

then you need to take a amperage reading with it off the tractor and with it one the tractor, and if you really want to be thorough, do it with both starters.

we are trying to determine if the amperage is changing by being mounted on the tractor, and by checking it with nothing running we are trying to see if there is some phantom load taking power from the start circuit.

 

[Noytheyah]

Ok here’s the results
Ignition off -0amps
Ignition on -1.64amp
Old starter on- 85amp
Old off -73amp
New on -72
New off -47
Glow plugs on 32 and decreasing to 23 after about 10 sec

Starter off the tractor was hooked directly to battery and on was connected to the tractors harness.

One other note, when I activate the starter it only sends a little over 10v to the solenoid. I was thinking this might play a role but if the starter is turning, that voltage wouldn’t matter, would it? The solenoid needs just enough voltage to close and hold the contact. But, I’ve isolated the start circuit and ran a jumper from the battery to the solenoid while it was mounted and it acted as if it was powered through the tractors start circuit.

 

[LittleBill21]

I hate to tell you this but those numbers are in line with what i would expect. the wiring is good, amperage did not drop, I feel you have a mechanical alignment issue, where the bendix is not even interfacing with the teeth on the fly wheel. i feel like the bendix is slamming into the face of the flywheel.

IS THE ENGINE ACTUALLY TURNING? go watch the fan belt, or is the starter just jammed into the flywheel, and doing nothing.

I know you did the tape thing, but I'm not convinced, throw baking soda or talcum power over the entire fly wheel housing and the starter and see where the bendix is actually landing when you go to start it.

 

[MTGreen]

I hate to tell you this but those numbers are in line with what i would expect. the wiring is good, amperage did not drop, I feel you have a mechanical alignment issue, where the bendix is not even interfacing with the teeth on the fly wheel. i feel like the bendix is slamming into the face of the flywheel.

IS THE ENGINE ACTUALLY TURNING? go watch the fan belt, or is the starter just jammed into the flywheel, and doing nothing.

I know you did the tape thing, but I'm not convinced, throw baking soda or talcum power over the entire fly wheel housing and the starter and see where the bendix is actually landing when you go to start it.

Another thought is you could potentially take the solenoid off the starter and manually pull the engagement lever with no power applied and by taking the starter on and off and manipulating that lever you should be able to figure out if the gears are actually meshing like they're supposed to.
Something else that occurred to me is judging from the pictures earlier on in the thread, is there a possibility that the starter can be installed clocked 180°?

 

[MTGreen]

Another thing is you could put your finger on the solenoid when you go to crank it and you'll be able to feel if that solenoid is actuating or not

 

[Noytheyah]

No the engine does not turn when the starter is activated. I can turn the engine by hand. I colored the ring gear with a sharpie and there’s no signs of the starter touching it. I did remove the flywheel to change the pilot bearing but I marked it before I took it off and lined up the marks when putting it back. The front and back of the ring gear coincide with the distance of the starter gear when extended.

Assuming it is an alignment issue, how would you suggest ruling it out? There is some slight play when mounting the starter. I tried moving it all the way one way and tried it all the way the other with the same results. As I recall the fly wheel just mounts on a hub from the crank. I know I lined up the same bolt holes when I put it back.

 

[Noytheyah]

Another thought is you could potentially take the solenoid off the starter and manually pull the engagement lever with no power applied and by taking the starter on and off and manipulating that lever you should be able to figure out if the gears are actually meshing like they're supposed to.
Something else that occurred to me is judging from the pictures earlier on in the thread, is there a possibility that the starter can be installed clocked 180°?

Great idea I’ll try that tomorrow. No on the 180°. It won’t fit. Also, It’s installed that way on the diagrams.

 

[MTGreen]

Great idea I’ll try that tomorrow. No on the 180°. It won’t fit. Also, It’s installed that way on the diagrams.

A further confirmation while you've got the solenoid off you could potentially hook up the positive wire and clamp it to a ground and see if it is actuating while applying power when the starter is installed on the tractor.

You could consider putting a blob of Play-Doh or some waxon the ring gear to provide a witness mark if the Bendix does touch it. If it falls into the clutch housing it's no big deal

 

[LittleBill21]

I think we are wasting time on the solenoid, the amperage readings are where they should be, the solenoid is nothing more then a large relay used to have the starter controlled by the smaller wiring in the key switch, by bypassing the solenoid, you have ruled all electrical issues out.

by seeing higher amperage across both starters tells me the bendix is not engaging, but potentially hitting something causing the higher amperage. i believe the nose of the bendix is touch inside of the flywheel

put either tape, or paint or something on the entire flywheel in that section, u will have to see some sign of a mark somewhere, there is no reason the amperage went up 10 amps, unless the voltage drop was higher due to some loss we aren't seeing.

 

[POGuy]

I think we are wasting time on the solenoid, the amperage readings are where they should be, the solenoid is nothing more then a large relay used to have the starter controlled by the smaller wiring in the key switch, by bypassing the solenoid, you have ruled all electrical issues out.

by seeing higher amperage across both starters tells me the bendix is not engaging, but potentially hitting something causing the higher amperage. i believe the nose of the bendix is touch inside of the flywheel

put either tape, or paint or something on the entire flywheel in that section, u will have to see some sign of a mark somewhere, there is no reason the amperage went up 10 amps, unless the voltage drop was higher due to some loss we aren't seeing.

Could the alternator be shorted and causing these issues ??

 

[LittleBill21]

Could the alternator be shorted and causing these issues ??

based on his amp readings, I would say no. also note we told him to remove all wiring in regards to the starting, it should only be 2 wires. straight to the starter. he also mentioned the engine is not turning, shorted alternators would show up shorted in the no load test, its looking like mechanical alignment at this point.

 

[ruffdog]

based on his amp readings, I would say no. also note we told him to remove all wiring in regards to the starting, it should only be 2 wires. straight to the starter. he also mentioned the engine is not turning, alternators don't do anything unless they spin, its looking like mechanical alignment at this point.

At this point I would isolate just the starting circuit like you say. Just the big red lead to the starter and pull the 30a fuse, then jumper 12v to the starter solenoid. This would be isolating from any draw from the alt or glow plugs. If that doesn't work, something is limiting amps to the starter like cables or solenoid.

 

[LittleBill21]

At this point I would isolate just the starting circuit like you say. Just the big red lead to the starter and pull the 30a fuse, then jumper 12v to the starter solenoid. This would be isolating from any draw from the alt or glow plugs. If that doesn't work, something is limiting amps to the starter like cables or solenoid.

his testing above shows there is no power loss when the starter is mounted in the tractor, if anything its pulling more amps, we also showed there was no draw on the starting wires, so there does not appear to be a wiring issue, it seems like alignment of some sort

 

[ruffdog]

Is something major goofy here? Was the battery hooked up correctly? In rare cases, I've heard of batteries being able to have it's polarities flipped. Is the starter running in the correct direction?

 

[LittleBill21]

Is something major goofy here? Was the battery hooked up correctly? In rare cases, I've heard of batteries being able to have it's polarities flipped. Is the starter running in the correct direction?

he says it tests correctly when off the tractor... we can only go by what he says. the red herring in this, is the flywheel has been removed and reinstalled at some point....