Tractor vs Skid Steer Loader Specs

[Smokeydog]

Recently sold some logs and one blown downed walnut tree by creek to a local saw Miller. He uses a steel track over wheels skidsteer at his mill. He is also professional forest hotshot firefighter qualified on many machines.
The walnut 30” tree was high hazard because of the terrain. He was impressed how easy the M59 preformed the work and moves that would have been hard for a skidsteer. Backhoe often swing uphill for balance. Transported logs 1/2 mile to load his trailer. Easily carried him, saws and equipment to/from tree.

Move a lot of brush and trees on my hillside. Being able to grapple a load, get off and trim with chainsaw not really safe with skidsteer. Road and landscape damage lot less. Now with soft ride FEL, time in the saddle kinder on worn bodies.

Never a perfect machine for all but the M59 makes a good dance partner on the farm.

 

[ddbackhoe]

There is no such thing as the one perfect machine for all jobs. A skidsteer has very low ground clearance. A skidsteer (except JCB) has to be climbed into and out of. Bigger skidsteers are heavy (more than 7500). Telebooms (versahandler) are really nice but (smaller, JCB 508 etc) lack ground clearance also. Farm tractors with a loader arent designed for heavy construction work.A compact wheel loader could tick off most of the boxes, but are hard to find used.
The OP is using a L47 for comparison, is a backhoe part of the equation too?

 

[AaronD81]

I bought a skid to use for logging and to use around my sawmill. I had it 6 weeks and it just wasn't working out, so I sent it down the road! I then bought a loader tractor, what a huge improvement!

It will walk away with a log that the skid would bounce off the ground and do it with MUCH more traction and not tear the ground up so much! Plus, now I can easily tow trailers ect. in snow or mud that would stop the skid, that I would have to drop the log and push myself out with the bucket.

My tractor is a thousand times more versatile!

SR

What model skid steer and what model tractor?

There is no such thing as the one perfect machine for all jobs. A skidsteer has very low ground clearance. A skidsteer (except JCB) has to be climbed into and out of. Bigger skidsteers are heavy (more than 7500). Telebooms (versahandler) are really nice but (smaller, JCB 508 etc) lack ground clearance also. Farm tractors with a loader arent designed for heavy construction work.A compact wheel loader could tick off most of the boxes, but are hard to find used.
The OP is using a L47 for comparison, is a backhoe part of the equation too?

I used L47 for several reasons. My dad keeps his mill at a place with an L47 and he said it occasionally can't lift a log, so that is my starting point for capacity. From what I've read it's built stronger than a typical compact tractor. It's comparable in weight (7k lbs) and used price (~$30-40k) to a mid size skid steer/small CTL. Also, it could potentially replace my tractor and I have some use for the backhoe.

It seems the consensus is if I'm only looking for max lift capacity on a machine I can transport the skid steer is the way to go. The other consideration is that I don't have a lot of other uses for it, a TLB would be much more useful, but that's a personal decision.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[jb1390]

That's not what breakout means. Breakout is the force at the pin at ground level, when using the loader lift cylinders. That force generally decreases as height increases, due to geometry. It's why manufacturers often give both. Breakout matters when you're trying to lift out of a pile, or pick up a pallet or something at ground level.

I’m not sure how to explain this to you. Break out force and lift use different hydraulics, different angles, different ways. For breakout if you laid the bucked flat on the ground and put the breakout number at the far edge of the bucket you could curl the bucket and it would lift the weight but the back/heal of the bucket would be on the ground. If you tried to lift that weight off the ground the loader could not.

If you are most concerned about lifting things you should stop looking at tractors. Get something made to do that like a skid steer, off-road fork lift or telehandler. That’s all there is too it.

That's not what breakout means. Breakout is just the lift capacity (at the pin) at ground level. Using the same loader lift cylinders. Curl is something different.

Due to changing geometry of the loader arms and lift cylinders, the lifting capacity will generally decrease as you go higher. Which is why a manufacturer will give you lift to max height, and breakout force. Both at the pin. As you extend the load further out away from the pin, the capacity will drop (that's true for full height, and ground level lifts)

Check out some spec sheets, some will give you bucket breakout force (what you are talking about), separate from boom breakout. While it's not explicitly stated in many tractor datasheets, boom breakout (at the pins), is what they are showing.

My machine (and most tractor loaders), you'll see this in practice by being able to lift a load a little ways, but not to full height.

5.1.5 Breakout force at pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons
(pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the
lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line.

5.1.6 Breakout force (Z): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the
loader will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin
centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at
ground line.

5.1.7 Bucket rollback force at maximum height (VV): Vertical lifting
force, in newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert, located 800 mm (31.5
in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline, using the bucket cylinders
only, with loader at maximum height and bucket horizontal.

5.1.8 Bucket rollback force at 1.5 m (59 in.) lift height (XX): Vertical
lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert located 800 mm
(31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the bucket
cylinders only, with the loader positioned to locate the bucket pivot pin
centerline at 1.5 m (59 in.) above ground line and bucket horizontal.

5.1.9 Bucket rollback force at ground line (ZZ): Vertical lifting force, in
newtons (pounds), the bucket will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.)
forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the bucket cylinders only,
with the loader positioned to locate the bottom of the bucket cutting edge
horizontal at ground line.

 

[jb1390]

OP, when comparing spec sheets for lifting at ground level, and breakout forces, one of the reasons that this will be difficult to do is that SS and tractor loaders use different geometry for lifting. Independent of whether the cylinders are larger, you can see in SS geometry that the load stays close to level, even as the load is lifted. That is not true with a tractor. If you did not curl forward as you lifted, your load would be facing nearly vertical on many tractor loaders at full height, and the longer the arc would be that the load needed to travel. So the longer the load gets (i.e. pallets vs loaded bucket), the more the tractor capacity will drop, because the load needs to travel further to complete the lifting arc. So that's why there's some examples of the Kubota SS lifting a pallet when a comparable (on paper) kubota TLB won't do it. It's more complicated than hooking a gauge to the lift pins at ground level and reading what it says. In the real world you generally lift forward of the lift pins, and the further forward you go, the lower your capacity will be. This is more pronounced with tractor geometry.

Regardless of all that - I would look more at overall operating weight and use cases. My neighbor has a New Holland LX665 that I borrow sometimes, and I have a 50 HP tractor that weighs about the same. The lift for a bucket full of material is probably about the same. My tractor when I have heavy counterweight is much more stable, especially over rough terrain. I can get out of the tractor safely with a suspended load. The tractor is less maneuverable, and you can't see the bucket edge. The SS is better at grading both due to visibility and to lift arm stops. I can run a mower on my tractor at the same time I have a grapple attached. The SS has terrible ground clearance and is prone to getting stuck in the mud. The SS is shorter and can be moved on a smaller trailer. The tractor does 13 MPH on the road, where the SS probably does about 5. I can pull a trailer with my tractor. As has been said, implements are cheaper with the tractor.

There are a lot of areas of overlap, but a lot of differences also. For my uses, I greatly prefer the tractor. If I was working in the dirt all the time, I'd probably have a SS. For material handling that you need to get out of the machine with a suspended load, as others have said - the only SS that you can do that safely is a volvo or JCB. Don't get out of a SS under a suspended load.

 

[4570Man]

The tractor does 13 MPH on the road, where the SS probably does about 5. .

My wheeled skid steer does 11 mph and the tracked one does 7 mph. It would surprise you how much faster I could shuffle material with the skid steer vs a tractor. I can reach top speed with the skid steer just by clicking the 2 speed button which can shift on the go and pushing the joystick forward more. I can go between traveling at top speed to slowing down to a craw to take the next scoop and speeding back up again. The tractor can’t do that without changing gears. Even the HST tractor can’t do it without changing ranges. If I’m working with the tractor I almost always work in medium range and deal with speed restrictions that imposes. Sometimes I still have to shift into low to scoop. It’s true I can’t use a bushhog and a grapple at the same time but I can swap them in just a few seconds. Much faster than you can put a bushhog on a tractor.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

What model skid steer and what model tractor?

The skid was a Case 1845, I had to put tracks on it to get any traction in any ground that wasn't dry or hard.

Any 50hp or bigger FARM tractor with a GOOD loader like an ALO brand would out do it for pulling, lifting or just being able to go through snow, mud or pull loads, especially down the road.

These are the jobs that are for woods use, and around the sawmill use...

I don't have any use for a compact tractor for heavy work, I've not had them hold up for me for that kind of use. I'm slowly getting rid of compacts and have replaced them with small FARM tractors. They have been a HUGE improvement.

I'm buying tractors that are tougher, last longer and are cheaper to buy, and if needed, easier to work on...

BTW, my loader tractor does 22mph on the road...

SR

 

[jb1390]

My wheeled skid steer does 11 mph and the tracked one does 7 mph. It would surprise you how much faster I could shuffle material with the skid steer vs a tractor. I can reach top speed with the skid steer just by clicking the 2 speed button which can shift on the go and pushing the joystick forward more. I can go between traveling at top speed to slowing down to a craw to take the next scoop and speeding back up again. The tractor can’t do that without changing gears. Even the HST tractor can’t do it without changing ranges. If I’m working with the tractor I almost always work in medium range and deal with speed restrictions that imposes. Sometimes I still have to shift into low to scoop. It’s true I can’t use a bushhog and a grapple at the same time but I can swap them in just a few seconds. Much faster than you can put a bushhog on a tractor.

My only point is that there are numerous differences between the two machines that would make one fit better for an individual, beyond lift capacity. Where I live, I am often moving rocks or logs when I mow, or grabbing briars off of stone walls with the grapple to then mow them with the bushhog. It matters not how long it takes you to swap implements, for what I do in New England having both attachments at the same time is extremely valuable. That may not be true for you, or for the OP.

I've not used a 2 speed SS, that would be a nice feature if I were to ever buy one.

 

[jb1390]

I'm trying to compare loader specs and it's hard to do on paper. I don't have experience with skid steers so I'd like some perspective from those that do. Ignoring all other differences between tractors and skid steers, how do you determine which loader is stronger? ROC and tipping load are the common skid steer specs, but how do you compare that to a tractor loader that is rated at lift at a certain height? Breakout force appears to be the only overlapping spec. It would mainly be used for lifting logs onto trailers and mills so max height isn't important. As an example, the Kubota L47 is rated at 2,848 lift to max height and 4,531 breakout force. The SSV75 has ROC of 2,690, tipping load of 5,380 and lift arm breakout of 4,850. On paper the lifting capacity seems comparable, is that correct? Again, I'm ignoring the usual differences between tractors and skid steers. Is there a certain spec that I should use to compare between the two and across brands? Breakout force seems to be more important for my use, should that be what I use to compare?

Do you know the maximum size log you'd want to lift into a trailer? For reference, if it's helpful - here are some logs I have lifted with my machine, rated at 2700 to full height, and 5100 breakout. The white oak log is 9 foot long, something around 4 foot at the one end, and maybe 32" at the small end. It was standing dead so the sapwood was lighter than a live tree. I think it weighed somewhere around 2500-3000 pounds. I managed to lift that into a trailer, but the machine wasn't real happy about it, and if I had a steady diet of moving these then I'd have something bigger, maybe even a full size backhoe.

The other log was too large to get the length we wanted and also be able to lift into the trailer. So I ripped it on site with a chainsaw, which is a pain, but doable if it's a rare occasion.

When shopping for my machine I got about the heaviest tractor I could and have it still be hydrostatic, which is important to me for a variety of reasons. I run it with a 2k pound concrete counterweight when I'm moving big logs.

The grapple I have on there is an EA 54", which is a relatively light weight attachment. Attachment weight cuts in to your lifting capacity. I really prefer the grapple vs forks for loading on to my mill. I also use it for turning logs when they are large.

 

[AaronD81]

Do you know the maximum size log you'd want to lift into a trailer? For reference, if it's helpful - here are some logs I have lifted with my machine, rated at 2700 to full height, and 5100 breakout. The white oak log is 9 foot long, something around 4 foot at the one end, and maybe 32" at the small end. It was standing dead so the sapwood was lighter than a live tree. I think it weighed somewhere around 2500-3000 pounds. I managed to lift that into a trailer, but the machine wasn't real happy about it, and if I had a steady diet of moving these then I'd have something bigger, maybe even a full size backhoe.

The other log was too large to get the length we wanted and also be able to lift into the trailer. So I ripped it on site with a chainsaw, which is a pain, but doable if it's a rare occasion.

When shopping for my machine I got about the heaviest tractor I could and have it still be hydrostatic, which is important to me for a variety of reasons. I run it with a 2k pound concrete counterweight when I'm moving big logs.

The grapple I have on there is an EA 54", which is a relatively light weight attachment. Attachment weight cuts in to your lifting capacity. I really prefer the grapple vs forks for loading on to my mill. I also use it for turning logs when they are large.

Thanks that real world info is helpful. My dads mill is limited to 36”, but sometimes he wants to cut 12 foot boards or finds something bigger diameter he takes to a place with a bigger mill. He said some logs have been too big to lift with a L47 on forks, which has similar specs to your tractor. Some log charts I’ve seen say a 36” oak at 8 ft can weigh 4,000 lbs. I guess it’s inevitable to find something that’s too big for whatever machine you get so buying for what works 95% of the time makes sense instead of buying something too big or expensive just for the rare situation.

I have the EA 55” grapple on my little tractor so good to know I can keep it if I get something bigger.