Post COVID CUT tractoring “truths”

[Hay Dude]

YOU might sign it, but the minute you take a red pencil to any contract, it’s likely the seller will *not honor it.

* correction added.

 

[rScotty]

YOU might sign it, but the minute you take a red pencil to any contract, it’s likely the seller will honor it.

Certainly it will. Apparently you don't think so.

I typically re-negotiate every contract before I sign it. Don't you? If not, then you might want to consider changing how you do business. I write my own contracts when I take a job, for any consulting work that I do, for loans, for rentals, for negotiations for land or houses, for cars...and I did that for the last tractor that I bought as well.

A contract is just an agreement between two people. It is only as valid as their intent to keep to their agreement. And it is only enforceable if it has to go to court. I find that if I make it simple and strong and fair - and the intent is clear - then there aren't any problems.

I am astonished to hear that other people don't do that. If you don't do business that way, then how do you do business at all? How do you propose to buy anything - like a tractor - if you don't negotiate?

There seems to be something that I'm not understanding here. I can't be the only person who has ever negotiated a purchase or signed a contract.
Isn't it typical for both sides to change it until both are satisfied?
rScotty

 

[Hay Dude]

Certainly it will. Apparently you don't think so.

I typically re-negotiate every contract before I sign it. Don't you? If not, then you might want to consider changing how you do business. I write my own contracts when I take a job, for any consulting work that I do, for loans, for rentals, for negotiations for land or houses, for cars...and I did that for the last tractor that I bought as well.

A contract is just an agreement between two people. It is only as valid as their intent to keep to their agreement. And it is only enforceable if it has to go to court. I find that if I make it simple and strong and fair - and the intent is clear - then there aren't any problems.

I am astonished to hear that other people don't do that. If you don't do business that way, then how do you do business at all? How do you propose to buy anything - like a tractor - if you don't negotiate?

There seems to be something that I'm not understanding here. I can't be the only person who has ever negotiated a purchase or signed a contract.
rScotty

You aren’t negotiating with the dealer/seller when you red pencil a manufacturers contract. You are red penciling the manufacturers contract. The dealer won’t be able to over ride corporate manufacturers contracts unless he personally wants to give you those concessions.
Rarely will a dealer give personal/dealership promises that exceed the manufacturer.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, but most dealers would laugh at red pencil lines through contracts they didn’t even create.

 

[rScotty]

You aren’t negotiating with the dealer/seller when you red pencil a manufacturers contract. You are red penciling the manufacturers contract. The dealer won’t be able to over ride corporate manufacturers contracts unless he personally wants to give you those concessions.
Rarely will a dealer give personal/dealership promises that exceed the manufacturer.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, but most dealers would laugh at red pencil lines through contracts they didn’t even create.

I know all that. I'm old. I've been successful at business for longer than most people live, and grateful for every minute.
One of the things I've learned is that there are some times when it is better to not say anything & just let the person think about it.
rScotty

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

Of course they won't, they will sue for a buy back.

You clearly don't have a clue about arbitration.

Sueing for a buy back really worked well for all the owners of the B3350 didn't it.

I have been through arbitration and had it come out in my favor. While I don't pretend to know about all arbitration in all cases everywhere, I have some experience with it.

Tell me, what is your experience with Kioti's arbitration?

 

[houska]

Lots of good stuff all mixed together in this thread, since the original post called out a lot of common wisdom and challenged it. Bravo! This is part of what makes this community so valuable.

Let me however challenge back a bit on the premise that hobbyists in particular are too quick (or are encouraged too often) to buy more than they need. I think that's sometimes true, especially when spending too much extra $ before they know what they really need, and then not having the $ to get the extras (e.g. additional implements) that would actually make a real difference once they figure it out.

However, not always. It's important to recognize some hobbyists are constrained as much by time as by cash, if not more. Yes, for many, saving 2 hours total mowing time per year because of a bit more HP, or turning a day maintaining the driveway into 2 hours with the right implement, is a frankly unnecessary luxury. It's all fun seat time anyway, they have loads of time to do stuff, and if a few more projects end up being pushed to next year, it really doesn't matter.

For others, whether due to the time demands of their "real" job or family responsibilities, or just because they're fond of setting ambitious objectives for themselves, it's always a race against time. Faster mowing time and driveway maintenance means they'll actually get around to fixing that old culvert before it floods the road. Having the right gear to pull stumps on the new pasture a bit quicker means they'll actually have the time "left over" to prune the new plum trees in the orchard the way they deserve. Or won't give up on that pasture in frustration for the 3rd year in a row. In contrast, saving money by getting the wrong (underpowered) equipment will cost $ and time if they decide to upgrade later. And cheaping out on gear that ends up breaking right at the beginning of your 2 weeks scheduled time off (to work on your land) doesn't mean you shrug your shoulders and do something else while waiting for your machine to be fixed, it means you postpone your Big Project to next year, or run around madly spending any amount of $ renting a replacement, because that's your one chance.

I got lots of good advice on this board a few years ago when I was starting from scratch, and I took the various comments phrased as "you should really get extra X and Y" not as "you'd be dumb not to get ALL of this extra stuff and blow your budget to smithereens" just as "be sure you think through what X and Y (and A and B and C and ...) might bring you, 'cause you might have missed their advantages."

I overbought on some things, I underbought on others. My main trailer is needlessly large and beefy. I could have bought a crappy old boxblade rather than a shiny new one. On the other hand, every time I have to downshift on That One Hill to low from medium range, I regret I didn't get those extra 5 HP. And I've just spent real $$$ buying an new miniex post-COVID when I could have spent $ buying a new or used one pre-COVID, had I paid more attention to those telling me a tractor backhoe has real limitations. I'm not mad - you win some bets and lose others - but this time vs $ tradeoff can get really complicated.

 

[DK35vince]

I'm not surprised at that. Lots of companies made simple basic tractors like that back then and they do tend to last nearly forever. 5000 to 10,000 hours before a rebuild is what we used to figure on 20 to 50 years ago.

Tractor Data says your Kioti DK35 is a three cylinder, pre-computer, pre-emissions, naturally aspirated, and has independent injection by Bosch - not common rail.
Plus it has a manual transmission with shuttle shift. It's a heavy tractor, built low with a wide stance.

That's a combination made to last. The shuttle saves on clutch wear and my guess is it is fuel efficient too, since like all the diesels of the era it was made to work well at any engine speed from idle on up.

All those are simple components with close to a century of development. Basic standard tractor.

Glad you have one, it sounds like a keeper
But I'm curious - What would you buy today?

rScotty

I have no plans to ever replace this tractor for reasons you mention above.
Simple and reliable.
I do not a want tier IV machine. I work for a small paving company and we have multiple pieces of diesel equipment with the pollution junk on them, and I've seen first hand what a PITA and $$ to repair they are. (far better off keeping what I have)

 

[edgarrian]

40 hp isn’t all that much when you’re dragging a fully loaded box blade, although traction may be an issue then with a CUT. Snowblower operation can take a lot of power too, and the higher power tractor may have higher road speed, if that’s a factor to you.

The lower power engines with old IDI combustion systems and mechanical fuel systems all have poor cold operation starting and cleanup issues, but if you don’t mind breathing white smoke, that shouldn’t matter to you either.

Not sure, but I think frame size and cab vs open station have a bigger price impact than hp within a given manufacture’s lineup. But then again, who wants to be blowing snow on an open station tractor, or to be working in the summer humidity or even rain, for that matter.

Lots of factors to consider, and no one answer is right for everyone. That’s why manufacturers give us options.

Oh yea there are certainly a lot to chose from. But what I hear all the time just like you mentioned. Pulling a full box blade of dirt. I have a box blade for my little tractor and I can pull it completely full and spilling over. The implements you purchase are designed to be handled by the unit. Just like snow blowing. This is where I dont think the added cost of moving up 10 or 15hp is in a newbies best interest. I thoroughly believe that implements and a third valve are much more valuable than the additional HP. John Deere, Kubota, Massey and all of them would like us to think that only consideration is hp and weight. Thats just not true unless you are an actual farmer. For most of these conversations. Thats not the case.

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

Oh yea there are certainly a lot to chose from. But what I hear all the time just like you mentioned. Pulling a full box blade of dirt. I have a box blade for my little tractor and I can pull it completely full and spilling over. The implements you purchase are designed to be handled by the unit. Just like snow blowing. This is where I dont think the added cost of moving up 10 or 15hp is in a newbies best interest. I thoroughly believe that implements and a third valve are much more valuable than the additional HP. John Deere, Kubota, Massey and all of them would like us to think that only consideration is hp and weight. Thats just not true unless you are an actual farmer. For most of these conversations. Thats not the case.

I have an older 27hp Ford 1715 that I used to move a lot of dirt with a box blade. It would make a fair sized list it I typed out everything I did with it. On the 7.5 acres, there was nothing it wouldn't do. I seldom wished for a bigger one, and seldom wished for a smaller one, so I figured the size was just about right. The one thing I did wish for was a remote for a hydraulic top link when using the box blade.
Now on a different property and with a 50hp cab tractor, I find I still choose the smaller open station tractor for most jobs during the spring and fall months.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Sueing for a buy back really worked well for all the owners of the B3350 didn't it.

All the owners didn't sue. Most were strung along by their dealers to believe there would be a fix. The ones that were smart lawyered up and got buy backs.

I have been through arbitration and had it come out in my favor. While I don't pretend to know about all arbitration in all cases everywhere, I have some experience with it.

If you want to forfeit your rights to some corporation have at it pal.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

I know all that. I'm old. I've been successful at business for longer than most people live, and grateful for every minute.
One of the things I've learned is that there are some times when it is better to not say anything & just let the person think about it.
rScotty

Scotty, what is there to think about?

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

If you want to forfeit your rights to some corporation have at it pal.

So, what has been your personal experience with Kioti arbitration? Did they not fix your tractor; put in used parts instead of new; taken too long to fix it; scratch the paint, what exactly?

 

[Hay Dude]

I’m going to “red pencil” through anything I don’t like on the CNH sales contract I’m doing on a NH wheel rake in the next few weeks and see what the sales team from Messicks says about it.

Stay tuned.

 

[tacticalturnip]

I’m going to “red pencil” through anything I don’t like on the CNH sales contract I’m doing on a NH wheel rake in the next few weeks and see what the sales team from Messicks says about it.

Stay tuned.

I genuinely look forward to the results, and would love for them to be positive. I've never considered this before, and it would restore some of my faith in humanity.

 

[Hay Dude]

I genuinely look forward to the results, and would love for them to be positive. I've never considered this before, and it would restore some of my faith in humanity.

I’m just being a wise guy. I’m not “red penciling” anything. I may ask some questions, but in my 30 years of buying equipment, I learned to not mark up contracts until both parties agree.

 

[LS Tractor Owner]

Of course they won't, they will sue for a buy back.

You clearly don't have a clue about arbitration.

Yeah right.... YOU don't have a clue about arbitration! Arbitration is far easier and much cheaper than a lawsuit.
Arbitration is done by an independent, non biased, legal authority. If a consumer can prove that they have a faulty tractor, the arbitrator can actually grant the consumer a new tractor.

If you were to file a lawsuit, now your lawyer goes up against the corporate lawyers..... who do you think is going to win? Then you are on the hook for your attorneys fees, plus, possibly the corporate costs..... Not to mention, if it's a jury trial, how many of those jurors know anything about tractors.....

You need to get out from under your rock every now and then.....

 

[tacticalturnip]

I’m just being a wise guy. I’m not “red penciling” anything. I may ask some questions, but in my 30 years of buying equipment, I learned to not mark up contracts until both parties agree.

Building me up, just to knock me down...

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Yeah right.... YOU don't have a clue about arbitration! Arbitration is far easier and much cheaper than a lawsuit.
Arbitration is done by an independent, non biased, legal authority. If a consumer can prove that they have a faulty tractor, the arbitrator can actually grant the consumer a new tractor.

If you were to file a lawsuit, now your lawyer goes up against the corporate lawyers..... who do you think is going to win? Then you are on the hook for your attorneys fees, plus, possibly the corporate costs..... Not to mention, if it's a jury trial, how many of those jurors know anything about tractors.....

You need to get out from under your rock every now and then.....

Looks like I've ruffled some LS feathers again...

 

[bazzer57]

These are my opinions. There are tons of newbees getting into CUTs and hobby farms; I think it is time to review some “facts”. At the very least I look at this like PCs now - buy what works for YOU!!

“Never ending ‘add this’”. I was on a budget of $25k in 2019 and made it. Just barely. Cab? Nice to have, would have added $5k or more and weight (see below). More hp? I bought 35; mine was available in 40 (same machine otherwise) for $2k more; couldn’t stay in budget. Weight? Frame? Even more hp. See next comment

“Get as big as you can” aka “get one size bigger than what you think you need”. Not for me. I’m a hobby farmer. With 14 acres of prairie to mow and generally keep up with I chose 35hp hst. The perfect machine for me. Would I like to have more hp? Once in a blue moon when grass gets really high and I have to slow down, but so what? Doesn’t affect loader work. And a bigger frame to allow more loader capacity isn’t really a need either (besides I bought kioti with best in class lift already). An extra hour added to 12 hours of mowing 4-5x/year is negligible. Besides I LIKE riding and using my machine!!

“Non-tractor considerations”

“Truck”. I have a 2005 small block f150. I have no plans or other need to replace it. But I can only pull 6700#. Going larger frame or bigger trailer etc would mean a different truck if I EVER need to pull it

“Trailer”. For me 7k is enough. Sure 10k is nicer. And 14k as well. But also heavier and this impacts total towing weight (see truck comments above) plus more $.

“Dealer importance”. I’ve been back twice in 5 years. Didn’t and don’t care. It’s a hobby farm; I don’t need to rely on my dealer nor build a relationship. My CUT is not used for my livelihood and if I don’t have it for a couple of weeks it is simply an inconvenience not a problem. I bought the best deal and shooed dealers until I got it.

“Resale”. I didn’t and don’t care. Some do. For me I wanted a machine to last for 20 years not to trade out like a car (which I don’t do either). Besides kioti sells (or sold) for 80% of a similar kubota new. Most of them near me sell for 80% of similar kubota used. So yes they resell for less but they cost less up front and retain about the same overall percentage value.

“Weight vs affordability.” I bought the kioti ck3510. Love it. Sure I’d like to have had the dk for more weight and larger frame. But extra $ and extra weight driving me to a bigger trailer for more $ and a new truck for more $

“Don’t buy new, buy used implements”. Have you really looked lately - like in the last 6 months?They aren’t the same prices they were 5 years ago; heck not even the same price as 1 year ago. And availability isn’t good either; people recognize what they have and are hanging onto them, or selling for extra $. It may still be cheaper to buy used but that’s IF you can find it.

“Xxx hasn’t been around as long as JD or Kubota.” So what. For CUTs those names aren’t the same as they were nor the same as their real Ag machines. The one I chose - kioti - has been in the US for more than 30 years; I’ll likely have left my machine to my survivors in 30 years. And EVERY brand has recalls, detractors, supporters, and (especially since 2021) parts issues.

Yeah , a gent with the same philosophy as me.
To me, it's the same logical pragmatic approach whether it's tractors, cars, trucks, PCs, phones, bikes, or whatever (dare I say wives/girlfriends?/(husbands/boyfriends??)). We all want more/better........ but it's not an ideal world. So make sensible choices based on your needs, priorities and budget.

 

[kenhar]

Opinions are like noses and other specific body parts, everybodys got one. If you are happy with what you have and where you are in life, you are a winner. If you are unhappy and envious of the neighbors, tuff s--t.