MF165 hydraulic questions

LDR812 · May 14, 2023

Hi - I just purchased a 1965 165. It is a basic model. No lever for power shift and just a 3 speed hi/low gear. I was surprised that it doesn’t have live hydraulics - have to let the clutch out in neutral or gear before 3 point lifts. Seem normal for a 165?

LDR812 · May 14, 2023

Also it gets noisier when the clutch is out - like a rumble or such from the gear box. I guess it’s the pump or something associated

Harry in Ky · May 14, 2023

Yes, all that is normal for that tractor. Typical six speed, non multi-power, live PTO, 165. All similar Massey models had straight cut transmission gears, and yes, they are a bit noisy. The hydraulic pump and PTO are both driven off the center disc of a two stage clutch, so that disc must be engaged for either of them to operate (clutch pedal half way up). Might take some getting used to, but that's the way they made it.

It's a simple, dependable tractor, but it has a few drawbacks. For one, it's light on hydraulics. If you need or plan to add anything that requires any hydraulics other than the three point, the options are limited, and not very convenient.

FordnMassey · May 14, 2023

Hi,
I have a MF 35 with the same hydraulic pump and clutch set up. Harry in Ky mentions a two stage clutch. It's also possible that like my 35 the clutch is single stage. Check by engaging the PTO and a gear, then raising the clutch pedal. If you can run the PTO with the clutch pedal half down before the tractor moves off, then you have a two stage clutch. A single stage clutch means that when you depress the clutch you lose forward motion, PTO and hydraulic pumping. That's annoying if you plan to fit a loader as I did. If it's a single clutch, you get around these issues by fitting an extra higher capacity hydraulic pump onto the front of the motor if possible, where it never stops pumping.

If you have a single stage clutch, beware that this may also mean that when engaged the PTO is connected to axle motion. This becomes a big deal when you have a high momentum machine on the PTO, such as a brush hog or slasher as we call them. The spinning momentum of the slasher will drive the tractor wheels for around 3 seconds after the clutch is fully depressed. Use the brakes to stop this momentum.

Consider also that the rumbling gearbox ,as opposed to a whine from worn gears, could be a bearing gone bad. I'd also suggest that having rebuilt a Massey pump recently, I think there's not much opportunity for them to be the source of the rumble. Check the magnetic plugs on the drain points at the next gearbox/hydraulic oil change for fragmented case hardening of a bearing surface.

Hope this helps.

Harry in Ky · May 14, 2023

Actually, the 165 wasn't offered with a transmission PTO as was the 35. It would be either live PTO with a dual clutch or independent PTO with a split torque clutch.

FordnMassey · May 15, 2023

Harry in Ky said:
Actually, the 165 wasn't offered with a transmission PTO as was the 35. It would be either live PTO with a dual clutch or independent PTO with a split torque clutch.

Apologies, I was assuming similarity thru the range at that time.

LDR812 · May 15, 2023

FordnMassey said:
Apologies, I was assuming similarity thru the range at that time.

Thanks to you both. It is a double clutch and I like that for the PTO (makes mowing easier because if you bog can slip the clutch a bit to stop forward motion but keep PTO cutting - unless you really bog it and need to stop PTO also) I'm just used to "live" hydraulics and was a bit surprised this tractor doesnt have it. Our old "58 or 59 Ford 901 had live 3 point. I'm a bit concerned about the rumble. It has new fluid in the transmission so that may not be a good sign.. I'll run it a bit and check the drain plugs. Also need to get a service manual - I saw someplace that it has a internal hydraulic filter and/or screen.
The crankcase is over full but isn't milky and doesn't smell like diesel, and the PS isn't very easy with some hard spots, grabby etc. I'm betting the power steering pump need resealed.

Harry in Ky · May 15, 2023

Power steering is totally separate from hydraulics. The only thing in common between the two is they both use oil. Steering oil is contained in a reservoir on the engine mounted pump. Have you checked that yet?

ScipioUSA · May 16, 2023

LDR812 said:
Thanks to you both. It is a double clutch and I like that for the PTO (makes mowing easier because if you bog can slip the clutch a bit to stop forward motion but keep PTO cutting - unless you really bog it and need to stop PTO also) I'm just used to "live" hydraulics and was a bit surprised this tractor doesnt have it. Our old "58 or 59 Ford 901 had live 3 point. I'm a bit concerned about the rumble. It has new fluid in the transmission so that may not be a good sign.. I'll run it a bit and check the drain plugs. Also need to get a service manual - I saw someplace that it has a internal hydraulic filter and/or screen.
The crankcase is over full but isn't milky and doesn't smell like diesel, and the PS isn't very easy with some hard spots, grabby etc. I'm betting the power steering pump need resealed.

If you have a two stage clutch, your hydraulic pump is driven off the same stage as the PTO. So if you press your clutch part way down, you should stop the tractor motion but still have PTO and hydraulic/three point power.

LDR812 · May 16, 2023

Harry in Ky said:
Power steering is totally separate from hydraulics. The only thing in common between the two is they both use oil. Steering oil is contained in a reservoir on the engine mounted pump. Have you checked that yet?

Yes, I was just pondering the other issues I have found with the "new to me" 165. Maybe not right forum for engine questions.. but thanks for the response. I think the PS pump is missing the dip stick. On the pump housing there is a piece og what appears to be CPVC (3/8 or maybe 1/2 with a cap glued to it. When dirty looked like it might of been OEM. When Idorve the tractor looking at it the PS was ok. When I got it home and mowed with it for about 45 minutes the PS really started getting tough - needing a lot of force on the wheel at differernt times. Like maybe the pump was surging / slipping or something. Engine crank case was over full when I looked at it, and I think after running it had a bit more in it but had seemed to level off. This next weekend is a oil change / fuel filter maintenance before any more running. I may pull a gear box plug too and check for metal

Harry in Ky · May 16, 2023

The power steering canister has no dipstick. Only a plug threaded into it. That port is the oil level. Fill til it runs out and screw the plug back in. The plg seals. There is no vent. You can try this. Fill it up to that point. Start the engine and let it run with plug out and watch what happens. You may need to top it off a bit at first. A certain amount of oil circulation is expected, but if the fluid starts to foam up and steadily bubble out on the ground, then yes, the pump probably has some problems.

On the other hand, even if the pump is working properly, hard and uneven steering could be linkage related, as the power steering on the 165 and 175 mostly takes place between the grill and the radiator. Lots of inter related moving parts up there that do tend to create problems as things wear over time.

LDR812 · May 18, 2023

Thanks Harry. Doing a oil change / fuel filter service today and for sure check the PS like you suggest

ScipioUSA · May 18, 2023

There may also be a filter inside the pump housing. I would check out the parts diagram to see. If you are servicing the system might not be bad to make sure that's in decent shape.

Harry in Ky · May 18, 2023

LDR812 said:
Thanks Harry. Doing a oil change / fuel filter service today and for sure check the PS like you suggest

Doing fuel filters? Depending on the brand of elements, be careful with the quad ring seals. With Wix or NAPA filters the top of the element is all covered except for the outer edge. Common rookie mistake is to place one of the seals on top of the filter before installing it. WRONG. Just because it fits there doesn't make it right. If you do that you will never get it bled out and running again.

One more tip on fuel filters. Whenever possible I don't change filters on a cold engine. If it's running currently and I'm doing it for maintenance, I always start it up and let it run a while before messing with the filters. That way the pump, lines, and injectors are all primed and ready. The engine will crank faster when warm, things just go a lot smoother when opening up the system, bleeding it out and getting it started again.

LDR812 · May 18, 2023

I wish I saw this earlier. I just changed them. In the filter mount (stays on engine - with all the lines etc) there was a groove which had a seal ring in it. I replaced those with new ones from the napa filters. I was able to bleed it but haven’t started. Waiting on the local parts store to get me the correct oil filter. Napa sold me canister filters and I need a cartridge for the oil

LDR812 · May 18, 2023

I’m hoping I don’t have to bleed it all the way at the injectors. I just cracked the filter bleeds and filled them up. I replaced the water seperator filter first, bleed it and then did the other one

Harry in Ky · May 19, 2023

There's more.

Okay, you used NAPA filters, no problem there. I use them almost exclusively. You did NOT put an O ring on the top of the elements, correct? If you got the filters bled easily enough, then I think you're good on that point.

Next you need to bleed the pump as well. If you fail to do that, you will no doubt have to bleed all the way through to the injectors. It's a given the engine will hit a few licks, die, and will not start again until you do. There is a small bleed port on the pump body, not far from the I.D. plate. Takes a 5/16 wrench to open and close. Open it up two or three turns, pump the hand primer until you get fuel without air out the vent. After that I usually crank the engine a couple revolutions with the starter and the fuel stop cable pulled out so the pump is OFF. After a few cranks it should spew fuel out the open bleeder in a good steam, maybe three feet or more. Tighten the bleed screw, crank it a bit more and push the stop cable in. It should fire right up.

LDR812 · May 21, 2023

I just bleed the filters as I had described before. It fires right up. I’ve put about 8 hours run time and it since then and all is good. No leaks. I did not do anything with the PS yet. It’s giving me quite a work out but that’s ok. I have to get a funnel small enough plus some more fluid. I am thinking I will just add straight 30 weight oil - so if it does leak into engine it shouldn’t dilute the crankcase oil

ScipioUSA · May 21, 2023

Here is a diagram of what the pump has going on. So there is a filter in there that would be worth checking out. Might give you a clue as to the problem when you open it up.