Backhoe problem

[rScotty]

BTW, which one is the relief, the #1 or #2?

I agree with ptsg. Number 2 seems to be the relief value - but I'm puzzled by the location. Still, if you put your hand on that control assembly and do not notice some sort of vibration when the motion of the BH stops, then I'd say that your relief valves are OK. I don't think you would miss the vibration of the relief valve working.

He says he never had such an issue and this suggestion came from TYM.
Also, what supports the idea of the connectors, the problem started with 2 stops per swing every 1/3 of the way. After i disconnected and connected the BH it changed its behavior and now it makes 5-7 stops.
I checked the connectors inside, they look like new, no dirt, no rust no anything else.
Hopefully tomorrow i'll be able to get new connectors and install them


Are you saying that that those ones are not good connectors? Which ones should i buy and how can i see the difference between the good ones and bad ones?

Also, i took a picture of the connection where the hose is connected. I guess it is PB point?

The support for the idea of the connectors is simply that something seems to be interrupting the flow and the connectors do have the ability to do that. The hydraulic force is going to be able to move most anythng else out of the way. I don't see anything that tells me those connectors are inexpensive or otherwise... and don't know of any way to tell. This is just speculation on my part because what you are having happen would make sense if a spring/ball blocking setup went bad.

The fact that it chanced when you disconnected and reconnected them sounds pretty suspicioius too.
BTW, if that device #1 is indeed a check valve as ptsg says.... then we have to include the check valve in the list of possible culprits. First I would confirm that the hose to #1 is the input pressure - if your hoe is plumbed like we think, that hose should come back from the front loader control valve PB port.

If so, see if tapping on the check valve changes things or if you can feel a vibration there.

If nothing works - but I'm hopping it will - then the next thing will be to remove that check valve or plumb it solid without the quick disconnects just to see if it works then. That may need putting in a dummy or different valve to make up the space.

And after that...if still no luck, make up a test gauge you can insert into the line. Not sure why.... It will be a T connector with quick connectors on each end and a guage in the center of the T connector. Whole device costs maybe 50 to 75 bucks to make up. Use a 0-5000 psi pressure gauge - usually that is a $30 item.

I'm banking heavily on the connectors or check valve. After that I am running out of simple ideas...
luck,
rScotty

 

[2515R Dude]

I support the connector plan. One thing that concerns me is that if I understand correctly you are only seeing the pause in one direction of movement and not the other. I understand on multiple functions but only one way. Is that correct? If so that leads me to suspect the valve itself as a problem.

That is a stack type valve so there could be an issue with where the spool valves mate together. Or if it is only on the two functions, swing and boom curl then maybe you could swap spool valves to test. But that would be a process and somewhat time consuming.

So you don’t see the symptoms when curling the bucket?

No, it is both ways, right or left, starts fast then hiccups amost to the end, same with the curl functions, stops in the middle, hesitates a sec or two and keeps going

 

[2515R Dude]

First I would confirm that the hose to #1 is the input pressure - if your hoe is plumbed like we think, that hose should come back from the front loader control valve PB port.

As much as i understand the #1 is on the return hose, going back to the gear box. The one which comes from the PB is on the opposite side just below the #2 relief valve

If so, see if tapping on the check valve changes things or if you can feel a vibration there.

No vibration whatsoever. The only noise i hear is when i lower the boom, i hear loud sound of running fluid

If nothing works - but I'm hopping it will - then the next thing will be to remove that check valve or plumb it solid without the quick disconnects just to see if it works then. That may need putting in a dummy or different valve to make up the space.

And after that...if still no luck, make up a test gauge you can insert into the line. Not sure why.... It will be a T connector with quick connectors on each end and a guage in the center of the T connector. Whole device costs maybe 50 to 75 bucks to make up. Use a 0-5000 psi pressure gauge - usually that is a $30 item.

I'm banking heavily on the connectors or check valve. After that I am running out of simple ideas...
luck,
rScotty

I hope it works without drastic measures.
Just spoke to the dealer again, he offered to come over, change the connectors and see what is going on. Great guy.

 

[oldnslo]

Are there two or three connections - hoses between the tractor and hoe? If only two where does the return line connect to? Have you tried lowering or moving the 3 point lever to lower to see if makes any difference? If only two lines and going back through 3 point and lever was moved to full raise it might cause these symptoms.

My two cents, should I ask for some change back

 

[2515R Dude]

Just found the schematics, looks like the hose from the check valve is supposed to be on the return line. So, mine is installed correctly.

 

[K5lwq]

No, it is both ways, right or left, starts fast then hiccups amost to the end, same with the curl functions, stops in the middle, hesitates a sec or two and keeps going

Then I am really on board with the connectors being changed. Makes the most sense to me.

 

[2515R Dude]

Are there two or three connections - hoses between the tractor and hoe? If only two where does the return line connect to? Have you tried lowering or moving the 3 point lever to lower to see if makes any difference? If only two lines and going back through 3 point and lever was moved to full raise it might cause these symptoms.

My two cents, should I ask for some change back

There are only two hoses, one comes from PB and another goes to the return port.
No, i haven't tried the 3point, i'll tomorrow.

Yes, you will get a full refund as soon as the BH starts working correctly

 

[rScotty]

As much as i understand the #1 is on the return hose, going back to the gear box. The one which comes from the PB is on the opposite side just below the #2 relief valve

Yes, judging by the diagram it does seem that it is plumbed just as you say above. It is always best to trace the hoses as you've done just to be sure. My guess is your problem is not in the valve body. It may be in the check valve. From the checking that you have done it doesn't seem to be in the relief valve.

If you post a few more hydraulic diagrams we may be able to make some more progress...

The three point....re: OldnSlo #24..... Well, we can hope his guess is right. Wouldn't it be nice if all it took was moving the 3pt lever!
Usually the three point system has some isolation from the loader & remotes so we can ignore it when the PB is being used for rear remote pressure and the only other hose is going to the sump But that's not an absolute design rule. A tractor doesn't have to be made or plumbed that way - it is just a mechanical assumption and is the reason we haven't mentioned the three point so far.
Here's hoping....
rScotty

 

[two_bit_score]

I need to hear how this is resolved.

 

[ptsg]

The Tank line coming from the BH does feed the remotes (which this tractor in particular doesn't have) and then feeds the 3 PT. Could possibly cause the issue, although the 3 pt valve on Bransons won't keep applying pressure with the arms fully up like other manufacturers do. Once it gets to position set by the lever, there is no more pressure being applied to it.

I'm also leaning towards one or various stuck load check valves on the BH valve bank.

 

[LD1]

The Tank line coming from the BH does feed the remotes (which this tractor in particular doesn't have) and then feeds the 3 PT. Could possibly cause the issue, although the 3 pt valve on Bransons won't keep applying pressure with the arms fully up like other manufacturers do. Once it gets to position set by the lever, there is no more pressure being applied to it.

I'm also leaning towards one or various stuck load check valves on the BH valve bank.

Most other MFG's dont continue to apply pressure either.

Thats where the feedback rod comes into play....so the tractor actually "knows" when the 3PH is at the top of travel.

I know kubota (and Im sure branson and all the others) caution you to leave the 3PH lever LOWERED, Because a slight mis-adjustment of the feedback (or even just the jarring around of the hoe) could make the 3PH say it needs raised....which will pressure spike the tank ports on the BH valve.....because MFG's use a "BH" loop with two hoses and no PB

 

[2515R Dude]

If you post a few more hydraulic diagrams we may be able to make some more progress...

This is the only hydraulic diagram i have for the BH

Usually the three point system has some isolation from the loader & remotes so we can ignore it when the PB is being used for rear remote pressure and the only other hose is going to the sump But that's not an absolute design rule.
rScotty

The Tank line coming from the BH does feed the remotes (which this tractor in particular doesn't have) and then feeds the 3 PT. Could possibly cause the issue, although the 3 pt valve on Bransons won't keep applying pressure with the arms fully up like other manufacturers do. Once it gets to position set by the lever, there is no more pressure being applied to it.

I'm also leaning towards one or various stuck load check valves on the BH valve bank.

I agree on this one, I highly doubt it is 3pt because i ALWAYS keep the 3pt all the way up and this problem just started

 

[oldnslo]

Need advise,
Yesterday my backhoe started acting up.
If i take the boom all the way to one side and then start turning it back, it goes 1/3 of the way, then stops for a second, then keeps going another 1/3, then hesitates again, then goes all the way to the end.
Pretty much same thing with the boom curl, when i extent it all the way out and start the curl, it stops in the middle, then keeps going. Same with the back movement when i try to extend it.

The oil is on MAX, clean as teardrop, so no problem there.

I called the dealer, he said he had never had such an issue. He also called TYM. They also scratch their heads.

The tractor is 2022 Branson 2515R with only 190 Hours.

Any thoughts?

If you use the stabilizer to purposefully tilt the tractor so hoe would gravity swing one direction and require power in the other does it still fail in both directions?

Load check failing should only affect one function and only if if load pressure is higher than pump
Pressure.

May also help point towards inlet or tank condition causing the problem since one direction would now require pressure to swing up hill while other direction could have tendency to run away

 

[2515R Dude]

Ok, here is today's update:
1. Removed the check valve, took out all internals, leaving virtually a hallow pipe, installed it back - no luck.
2. The dealer came with new connectors, we installed them, - no love ether.
3. Per some suggestions tried to pay with the 3pt. Closed the valve, opened, up position, low, middle - no changes

Now, a couple of observations: when the dealer came, he tried to run it at 2K RPM. then we heard slight changes in the engine behavior at the moments when the hesitations/hiccups occur. Interesting, it does not happen at low RPM. I'd expect the tractor would struggle more at lower or idle RPMs.

Dealer recorded a video and going to send it to Branson/TYM.

I'm starting to think that the problem is in the main control valve because only 2 functions out of four are affected. The Stabilizer and bucket curl do work fine. The only problems are with the boom swing and the dipper stick.

 

[K5lwq]

I was afraid that was the issue. Now of course determining what is wrong with those spools will be the challenge. They may replace the entire valve set or just the individual ones showing the symptoms. We may not ever know what actually is the issue once Warranty kicks in.

 

[rScotty]

Ok, here is today's update:
1. Removed the check valve, took out all internals, leaving virtually a hallow pipe, installed it back - no luck.
2. The dealer came with new connectors, we installed them, - no love ether.
3. Per some suggestions tried to pay with the 3pt. Closed the valve, opened, up position, low, middle - no changes

Now, a couple of observations: when the dealer came, he tried to run it at 2K RPM. then we heard slight changes in the engine behavior at the moments when the hesitations/hiccups occur. Interesting, it does not happen at low RPM. I'd expect the tractor would struggle more at lower or idle RPMs.

Dealer recorded a video and going to send it to Branson/TYM.

I'm starting to think that the problem is in the main control valve because only 2 functions out of four are affected. The Stabilizer an d bucket curl do work fine. The only problems are with the boom swing and the dipper stick.

It sounds like you have an excellent dealer. That's worth some publicity in my opinion. You guys did all that most of us would have done. Not much more can be done without a flow tester. But for some reason very few shops have them. That slight change at 2K is perplexing enough to keep me from even venturing a guess as to what is going on there.

I'm still not completely clear on which functions are affected, and thought at one time it was the boom swing and boom extend, rather than the dipper stick. Is the problem moving around or did I misunderstand?

But it is sounding more and more like you say - a main control valve issue. That's surprising; control valves are usually pretty rugged. It will be interesting to hear what Branson/TYM has to say. Maybe they will come up with something nobody has considered.
rScotty

 

[2515R Dude]

I'm still not completely clear on which functions are affected, and thought at one time it was the boom swing and boom extend, rather than the dipper stick. Is the problem moving around or did I misunderstand?

rScotty

Sorry, my fault, i was not clear. Affected the boom swing and dipper stick when I curl or extend it while the boom almost parallel to the ground, it stops in vertical position then keeps going.
The rest of the BH functions well

 

[mmsb27]

Please keep us updated with this. Interesting thread, sorry you have to deal with this, I hope TYM sorts it out for you.

 

[SnailTraX]

Following

 

[C170]

Sounds like cavitation to me (AIR)