Cutting power use to the bone.

[ruffdog]

A local power company just cleared the trees that grew near the power lines. That was a huge job with many crews (many country miles) that must have cost some serious ca$h. Someone has to pay for that....

 

[ultrarunner]

Back in the 30’s people actually built vacation cabins in the Oakland Redwood Hills.

This recluse got lack of a better word had a meter but no service… said he couldn’t afford it and set up a small harbor freight type trailer with panels and battery… refrigerator is propane…

Hot water a coil of poly to a tank.

I know there was a question raised at one time but since the solar was portable and he was not using the house wire nothing more came off it… he was quoted saying if utility power is required how can PGE turn off the power for days at a time and publish information on what to do when the grid is down during power safety shutoff events…

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

Our Public Utility District recently announced that the wholesale price from the Bonneville Power Administrtion will be double the current costs starting next year. Then they alluded to a two tier "time of use rate" and they are installing smart meters on every electric service so they can do "time of use rate" billing.

"Time of use" should read, "when we want to charge you more".

 

[riptides]

......


Like @riptides, we have exported millions of watts (3-4MWh net) of electricity at a cost to the utility equal to the same cost as they buy wholesale; we pay all of their costs for infrastructure (transmission costs, maintenance, etc.). They get the power without having to spend money on generation infrastructure, so they actually turn more of a profit on our power, despite their whingeing about it. We aren't causing any price increases.
......

Hey, I am not in the import/export business. LOL.

Why did my name come up?

 

[CobyRupert]

Our Public Utility District recently announced that the wholesale price from the Bonneville Power Administrtion will be double the current costs starting next year. Then they alluded to a two tier "time of use rate" and they are installing smart meters on every electric service so they can do "time of use rate" billing.

"Time of use" should read, "when we want to charge you more".

Nah… without “time of use” billing you are subsidizing (paying for) your neighbor’s electricity bill:

Let’s say you both use (say) 1000 kw-hrs of energy. Let’s say you both pay $100 for that energy. Seems fair, right? Wrong.

If you are energy efficient… scratch that (you use the same amount).
If you’re energy “conscious” and run your loads at off peak hours where it costs the utility $30 for your energy, but your fat neighbor blasts their AC and heated pool during peak hours when it costs the utility $120 for that energy, why should you both pay the same amount?
….that’s SOCIALISM!!

 

[ultrarunner]

Maybe more uniform production cost like hydro and nuclear and geo and coal and oil…

It seems the missing piece is solar…

 

[hosspuller]

I will challenge your statement that green energy is not real.

In November this year it will be 4 years that we have had a 7.5k solar array online.
At that anniversary I expect to have generated 36 mega-watt-hours of juice.
About 22 kwh per day average. This has completely offset the monthly electric bill.
I've said before that my favorite thing is when one of us leaves a light on or something I say "do you think we get free electricity around here?"
She says "matter of fact, yes I do".

It is real. It is here. Pretending will not make it go away but your belief system is yours and YMMV

regards,

R

There's a few points about your solar array.

You installed during the time of gov't rebates/subsidies. There's a financial cost of the money spent to install the solar. It costs both you and taxpayers.

Since you have a power bill, you're using the power grid and all its facility cost when the solar grid is down. Your billed usage likely doesn't pay for your facility use.

In short, your energy use is subsidized. Solar/ renewable power is only as real as its subsidies & billing riders.

Addendum... One can't compete with economics of scale the utility has to generate power. Kw vs Kw. ... Off grid electricity is only economical when the utility power connection is too far away that transmission cost outweighs the energy cost.

 

[wmfamily]

Between LEDs and a number of other measures, I've cut power use this year more than I expected to be able to. I keep a spreadsheet of daily and monthly usage and so far, 4 out of the 8 months this year have been the lowest usage since I started keeping track at the beginning of 2016.

Yet the bill each month is still higher.

Same here... Lower usage but higher cost.

 

[ponytug]

Hey, I am not in the import/export business. LOL.

Why did my name come up?

Oops! My bad. Corrected to @Roric. Sorry.

 

[Roric]

There's a few points about your solar array.

You installed during the time of gov't rebates/subsidies. There's a financial cost of the money spent to install the solar. It costs both you and taxpayers.

Since you have a power bill, you're using the power grid and all its facility cost when the solar grid is down. Your billed usage likely doesn't pay for your facility use.

In short, your energy use is subsidized. Solar/ renewable power is only as real as its subsidies & billing riders.

Addendum... One can't compete with economics of scale the utility has to generate power. Kw vs Kw. ... Off grid electricity is only economical when the utility power connection is too far away that transmission cost outweighs the energy cost.

Hosspuller,

I find errors of fact and understanding of how distributed energy resources work in your description of my array.
First, ALL energy resources are to some degree subsidized, rebated or credited
for investment in some manner. The gas in your car, the diesel in your tractor and most every kind is either tax-advantaged or investment stimulated buy our powers that be. The natural gas in your furnace is too.
Second, EVERY electric bill I've ever gotten says:
"...49% of your bill refers to power plant costs, 12% to high voltage line
costs, and 39% local wires..." (never mind Basic charges, and a sundry list
of other charges that I do not escape by having solar)
So I do pay for infrastructure.
The power company does not pay me for my investment in solar, depreciation,
maintenance and monitoring.
The thing about DER (distributed energy resource) is that it imparts or injects or puts online electricity that the utility does not have to produce.
This power, I might add, is even more 'correct' than utility power. The hardware
that regulates and makes safe the solar generated DC power and even corrects some of the AC power factor variance, the voltage variance's found in delivered power. And the excess power we deliver does not have to be purchased by the utility

Who is subsidizing who?

My facts counter your beliefs.

regards,

R

 

[Diggin It]

And they wonder why poeple wander off and don't post here as much.

 

[Snobdds]

Here’s a dirty little secret no one wants to admit: Capitalism doesn’t have the solution to all of humanity’s problems.

Let’s say a efficient utility has 1000 customers and needs $1.2 million dollars a year to keep wires on the poles, buy utility trucks, etc..
Math says, on average, every customer pays $1200 a year, or $100 a month. The books balance.

Now, 50% of the customers install LED lightbulbs, or puts solar panels on their roof, etc.. and their usage goes down 50%.

The utility still needs $12 million dollars a year for the wires, poles, trucks, workers, etc...

What is capitalism’s answer: 1) Customer’s bills are 1/2 of what they use to pay? Or:
2) Energy rates double?
The answer is #1 (at first) , then #2 (eventually).

Now imagine 999 customers went solar and you’re the last customer on the line. Your bill has to be $12 million or else the utility company goes broke.

Obviously, it’s a bit more complicated than these examples (as people still stay connected with less usage), but the principle is the same. It’s like when the nation gets a salary raise at work, then discovers that the price of everything goes up. Good ole supply and demand.

Good example, but it's not supply and demand.

Utilities and other large capital intensive operations defy the laws of supply and demand. It's called load factor economics. The utility would scale back the energy distribution until it satisfies demand. However you would still be billed on how much it costs to bring power to your meter. You could use nothing and still be charged.

No matter what, delivery is spread out on everyone...

 

[Snobdds]

And they wonder why poeple wander off and don't post here as much.

Stop being dramatic...

 

[paulsharvey]

There is nothing wrong with trying to reduce power usage. Now, it can get pretty crazy at the extremes, and the benefits start getting smaller as you get closer to zero, for more sacrifice. At a certain point, there are better things to focus on to save money.

Gas Inst-Hot water heaters are great if you have gas available. LEDs are a pretty painless thing to covert to.

When you decide to do self composting toilets, to save $1/month of well pump power, you've definitely crossed the line.

Get a free energy audit from most power co-ops. Water heater is a big percentage. Of coarse AC/heat, TVs/computers/ect add up if you leave them on.

 

[ultrarunner]

It’s a little ironic that every utility is pushing conservation and then says lower sales justifies higher rates.

The way it should work is volume users should get a break as distribution is fairly fixed… be it water, gas, electric…

 

[oosik]

Right now I have one light on - the freezer, hot water heater, frige and this computer. That's about as low as I can go. I've often wondered about LED lights throughout the house. But their "savings" is only there if they are on. And I always have only one light on. IE - leave the room - turn off the light.

During the summer - my monthly electric bill is just one notch above the "service minimum".

 

[CobyRupert]

In the winter, any savings the LED bulbs give you is spent for additional heating fuel.
That is, if your heating source isn’t as efficient/economical as the electrical heat that you get from an incandescent bulb (which is a >90% efficient electrical “heater”), then you’re losing money with LED “savings”.

However, in the summer, the savings you get from LED’s is multiplied. Not only their reduced wattage consumption; but your A/C also saves a good percentage of that electricity again, not having to remove the additional heat (energy) of those incandescent bulbs.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

In the winter, any savings the LED bulbs give you is spent for additional heating fuel.
That is, if your heating source isn’t as efficient/economical as the electrical heat that you get from an incandescent bulb (which is a >90% efficient electrical “heater”), then you’re losing money with LED “savings”.

However, in the summer, the savings you get from LED’s is multiplied. Not only their reduced wattage consumption; but your A/C also saves a good percentage of that electricity again, not having to remove the additional heat (energy) of those incandescent bulbs.

Good post for not outlawing incandescent bulbs, because they are more efficient for heating.

 

[4570Man]

In the winter, any savings the LED bulbs give you is spent for additional heating fuel.
That is, if your heating source isn’t as efficient/economical as the electrical heat that you get from an incandescent bulb (which is a >90% efficient electrical “heater”), then you’re losing money with LED “savings”.

However, in the summer, the savings you get from LED’s is multiplied. Not only their reduced wattage consumption; but your A/C also saves a good percentage of that electricity again, not having to remove the additional heat (energy) of those incandescent bulbs.

You’re not loosing money with them ever. At least from an energy use standpoint. If you were heating with electric resistance heat you’d break even. It still takes the same amount of energy to warm the house and which source it comes from makes no difference. But electric resistance is typically the most expensive heating fuel. If you were using a cheaper method of heating you’d be money ahead to use the led light bulbs that use less electric and more of the cheaper fuel.

 

[CobyRupert]

You’re not loosing money with them ever. At least from an energy use standpoint. If you were heating with electric resistance heat you’d break even. It still takes the same amount of energy to warm the house and which source it comes from makes no difference. But electric resistance is typically the most expensive heating fuel. If you were using a cheaper method of heating you’d be money ahead to use the led light bulbs that use less electric and more of the cheaper fuel.

Hmm…haven’t done the math in a while, but electric resistance always beat fuel oil and propane on a $/btu basis for me or was too close to call.
… granted, it gets fuzzy when estimating various combustible fuel furnace efficiencies, seasonal price fluctuations (if applicable), etc..
I know nothing about natural gas….