Cutting power use to the bone.

[ponytug]

Energy prices can be (always are?) quite local. In general, since a central generator has to burn natural gas / oil /coal to generate electricity with 40-80% losses, and then send the electricity down power lines, with more losses (I2R loss), before arriving at your house, it isn't the cheapest. PNW hydropower costs are a definite exception.

One thing to point out about cooling is that it takes much more energy to cool a building than it does to heat just due to the inherent inefficiencies in having to "push" heat into a hot outdoor environment. So while the difference in heating effects in winter may be close to negligible, especially if your home isn't sealed, the added heat in the summer is significant because of the inefficiency of pumping the extra heat out of the house as @CobyRupert pointed out above.

All the best,

Peter

 

[4570Man]

Hmm…haven’t done the math in a while, but electric resistance always beat fuel oil and propane on a $/btu basis for me or was too close to call.
… granted, it gets fuzzy when estimating various combustible fuel furnace efficiencies, seasonal price fluctuations (if applicable), etc..
I know nothing about natural gas….

Natural gas is cheap. I can run some calculations later but it’s probably half of what electric resistance cost. You could always plug in a space heater if electric resistance was the cheapest option to make up for the light bulbs.

 

[ponytug]

Natural gas is cheap. I can run some calculations later but it’s probably half of what electric resistance cost. You could always plug in a space heater if electric resistance was the cheapest option to make up for the light bulbs.

Cheap for some, not so cheap for others. August 2023 rates by state;

Hawaii (no surprise), Florida and Texas were the most expensive. ($52.42, $25.72, $23.91, respectively)​

New Mexico, Montana, and Wisconsin were the least expensive. ($8.99, $9.82,& $9.87, respectively)​

Natural Gas Rates by State | Choose Energy

Natural gas rates vary by state. Discover who has the highest and lowest costs throughout the country with our Natural Gas Rates Report.

www.chooseenergy.com

@4570Man Tennessee was the 8th cheapest. Kansas and Mississippi didn't report for some reason.

All the best,

Peter

 

[4570Man]

Cheap for some, not so cheap for others. August 2023 rates by state;

Hawaii (no surprise), Florida and Texas were the most expensive. ($52.42, $25.72, $23.91, respectively)​

New Mexico, Montana, and Wisconsin were the least expensive. ($8.99, $9.82,& $9.87, respectively)​

Natural Gas Rates by State | Choose Energy

Natural gas rates vary by state. Discover who has the highest and lowest costs throughout the country with our Natural Gas Rates Report.

www.chooseenergy.com

@4570Man Tennessee was the 8th cheapest. Kansas and Mississippi didn't report for some reason.

All the best,

Peter

Per that chart a thousand cubic feet is $12 in TN. A thousand cubic feet is a little over a million btu. Assuming I calculated right it would take 293 kw of electric to equal the same heat output. At the average cost in my state at 12 cents that’s about $35 worth. A basic gas furnace is about 80 percent efficient where the best are mid 90s. An electric resistance furnace is close to 100 percent efficient. Even with the efficiency considered the natural gas is a lot cheaper. Heating oil is basically non existent in my area but it would take 7.2 gallons of diesel to make a million btus. Road diesel is around $4 right now but you might get off road for $3.50 with a tax exemption. That’s about $25 at $3.50.

 

[oosik]

I'm like many "old timers" around here. No AC. I use fans to pull in the cool night air. Works great.

 

[Oaktree]

I'm like many "old timers" around here. No AC. I use fans to pull in the cool night air. Works great.

I don't have AC either, but like you live where there is such a thing as cool night air. For someone living in, say Arkansas probably not so much.

 

[Oaktree]

Heating oil is basically non existent in my area but it would take 7.2 gallons of diesel to make a million btus.

Curiously, what do people in your area use for heating fuel if they live outside the city and don't have access to natural gas?

 

[Dftodd]

I'm like many "old timers" around here. No AC. I use fans to pull in the cool night air. Works great.

That works in certain areas and depends on how the home is set up. I never had AC when I lived in Vermont. But I would have killed to have it in one apartment I rented for a short time there. The apartment had 3 windows facing the wrong direction to take advantage of a breeze. You just picked up the daytime heat from the parking lot.

Here in Arkansas, you could live without ac. But you would be absolutely miserable for 6 months out of the year. And life threatening in July and August.

 

[ponytug]

For us, AC has become important for the days and weeks that we can't open open windows due to the increases in wildfire smoke. It wasn't an issue ten or fifteen years ago, but it sure is now, and it isn't just a Californian issue either. The Canadian fires this year brought smoke to a lot of the US and Canada.

All the best,

Peter

 

[oosik]

Right now at 6am it is 43F outside. It is 65 inside. I have, just now, closed the windows and shut down the two fans. Otherwise - it will get too cold inside the house. On an extreme day when the outside reaches 95F to 98F it will be 75F to 78F inside. By 9pm it will be 75F outside and dropping. That's when I open the windows and start the cycle again.

It does help that I have a double wall Pan Abode cedar home. Walls are rated at R48 - ceiling at R65.

This is all well and good. Until those days when the great grandkids come to visit. The doors are open more than closed and it can get quite warm inside. And there may be a few days when the night temps stay somewhat elevated.

 

[paulsharvey]

We condition 365 days a year; either heating or cooling, here in N FLa. During October/November; yiu very well might heat during night, and by 11am, switch over to AC. We heat with heat pump, and try to avoid using E strips, but when it gets down in 20s, heat pump won't keep it warm. Ac set at 74 when wife is home, 76 when she's at work; heat set at 69. You might get a couple hours of open window Temps, but never whole days. Even when it's 70, it's probably very humid.

 

[4570Man]

Curiously, what do people in your area use for heating fuel if they live outside the city and don't have access to natural gas?

Electric and propane mostly. Some people burn firewood. Without access to natural gas your heating cost go up considerably.

 

[Oaktree]

It does help that I have a double wall Pan Abode cedar home. Walls are rated at R48 - ceiling at R65.

Good insulation makes a huge difference. Nothing so modern here, just an 1830s vintage farmhouse, but it's plank construction so that means 4" thick solid wood walls (lotsa fun updating wiring in outside walls!). No idea what the R value is of them, I did add 1" foam board between the strapping for drywall in the 2 rooms I gutted (kitchen & bathroom). 2nd floor ceiling is a bunch of poured in Zonolite-type stuff with 6" fiberglass over it. Holds the heat/cool quite well for an old house.

 

[bnold]

One thing to point out about cooling is that it takes much more energy to cool a building than it does to heat just due to the inherent inefficiencies in having to "push" heat into a hot outdoor environment. So while the difference in heating effects in winter may be close to negligible, especially if your home isn't sealed, the added heat in the summer is significant because of the inefficiency of pumping the extra heat out of the house as @CobyRupert pointed out above.

All the best,

Peter

Not really the case. Or at least location dependent.

The exterior to interior delta T for heating in my climate (N. Texas) is greater than that for cooling. Very often seeing more BTUs for heating than cooling. Or in my case (house) nearly the same. The increase in cooling BTU required comes from additional internal loads inside the conditioned space, lights, appliances, people, etc… these values are often ignored, especially in commercial applications for heating as the initial morning warmups are occurring without those internal loads present with the coldest outdoor air temps.

The spread generally gets larger as you go north. Heating BTU required quickly outruns cooling required.

 

[ultrarunner]

Still have a study published in search of the ideal climate based on the number of annual heating and cooling days.

Oakland California topped the list for metro areas.

Growing up the only time the heat was on is when when Grandparents and great Aunt visited during the Hoilidays…

No one had A/C and new homes for decades no heaters.

Could be why average kWh per day for a 2500 square feet home the single pane windows and 2x4 walls always within 10-12 kWh per day year round?

The above includes one family size refrigerator circa 1980 and large freezer circa 1967 plus electric dryer and cooking.

 

[bnold]

Still have a study published in search of the ideal climate based on the number of annual heating and cooling days.

Oakland California topped the list for metro areas.

Growing up the only time the heat was on is when when Grandparents and great Aunt visited during the Hoilidays…

No one had A/C and new homes for decades no heaters.

Could be why average kWh per day for a 2500 square feet home the single pane windows and 2x4 walls always within 10-12 kWh per day year round?

The above includes one family size refrigerator circa 1980 and large freezer circa 1967 plus electric dryer and cooking.

Ya, coastal tempering.

100kwh/day here pretty easy.

 

[ultrarunner]

In Olympia the kWh use boggles my mind but all electric including well pump 2 electric furnaces with one being Heat Pump.

Simply going to LED made a big difference and adding a timer to pond pump.

 

[Oaktree]

100kwh/day here pretty easy.

Yikes! Don't think I'd want your electric bill!! We don't use much more than that a month.

 

[lman]

Yikes! Don't think I'd want your electric bill!! We don't use much more than that a month.

Maybe he's got an air conditioner in his chicken house.

 

[bnold]

Maybe he's got an air conditioner in his chicken house.

Shop yes!
No chicken house though…

3 AC units on the property… (2 house, 1 shop)

When it’s 2pm and the weather app shows this, you can bet they are all running.