Is DEF that bad?

[3Ts]

Freezing point of DEF

In storage or when the engine is not in use, DEF will freeze at 12°F (-11°C). At this concentration level, the urea and the water freeze and thaw at the same rate – ensuring that you always have the correct amount of each.

 

[5030]

Nothing I own uses it so I really have no dog in the game anyway. I do buy DEF but I fertilize my hayfields with it via spraying it on. Great liquid fertilizer and much less expensive than 48% granulated urea is today. I always see where it's on sale then I buy numerous cases of it. It does smell like cat pee....

 

[ning]

It traps them, then lights them up all at once later.

Again, pooping in a bag and saying you don't poop then dumping that bag later....

On the remote assumption you're merely misinformed here ("never attribute..."):

The soot is particulate (ie solid) and it will get deep in the lungs and cause cancer.
The regen feature vaporizes the soot, primarily into CO2, which does not cause cancer.

The DEF is separate from the regeneration and serves to reduce NOx to N2 & O2.

 

[Atypical_decorum]

On the remote assumption you're merely misinformed here ("never attribute..."):

The soot is particulate (ie solid) and it will get deep in the lungs and cause cancer.
The regen feature vaporizes the soot, primarily into CO2, which does not cause cancer.

The DEF is separate from the regeneration and serves to reduce NOx to N2 & O2.

Well, I'm not a chemist. Just a simple medical professional. But I don't think you're entirely right. There's some phase changes, but it's not all roses shooting out of that burn cycle.... Try standing in front of it and taking a breath.

As for the carcinogenic nature of soot, chemicals can lead to cancer just as fast as particulate. The difference with particulate is unless you're breathing real deep over a long time, your body has hlmultiple ways of removing that soot whereas the chemicals absorb and cause DNA changes faster.

 

[Hay Dude]

I’m all for clean air & water.
There’s got to be a more reliable way than a DPF or DEF to make this work.
However, it may never happen with the forced EV “revolution“.
If it happens, it may take all this off our hands and put all the regulations on the power generation companies.

 

[mikester]

My F350 Powerstroke 6.7 has both DEF and a DPF.
I have monitored my fuel mileage when the DPF is running, and it absolutely TANKS my fuel economy.

Gee, I wonder why we don't get 24mpg anymore after Govt stuck their fingers into everything?

I wonder...

my 1994 6.5L Turbo Diesel had 200HP
my 2005 6.6L Turbo Diesel had 310HP
the new 2024 6.6L Turbo Diesel has 445HP

I'm thinking fuel economy sucks these days because buyers want bigger heavier trucks with more HP - not fuel economy.

 

[Kiotikrazy]

FYI The OP was asking about new DEF machines not your DEF free Mahindra

Pay attention to every time you see a new transport truck with DEF sitting at the side of the road with the safety markers out. A lot of trucks are getting stuck into limp mode due to an error code in the computer that can only be resolved by a $500 service call from the dealer for a guy to show up, plug in a laptop and clear the code.

Some DEF machines force you into a parked regen. Think about that when you are paying a guy $30/hr to operate a machine for you and it's parked in the middle of a field somewhere waiting for the parked regen to complete.

Like you I'm hanging onto my 2015 M59TLB without the DEF/DPF fun.

Seems like we are getting to the point it's better to rent equipment and let the rental company deal with the BS issues of keeping the equipment running. This way I just make a call and have a new machine ready for me by the next morning when the other one goes down and I only pay for the hours I use.

I recently rented a Cat 317 excavator. The machine only had 400 hrs on it when they dropped it off. Within a few hours, the thing started throwing emission codes. The service tech said the DEF pump was not putting out enough pressure and needed to be replaced. Cat would only authorize changing the filter first, and then the pump if it continued. He changed the filter and said, “The pump is bad but I can’t change it because of warranty authorization. Call me when it does it again, and I will come back and put the pump on.” Had to call him the next morning! You can’t make money with rental equipment either if it’s going to be like this!

 

[jwmorris]

Nothing wrong with the system or the DEF in most cases. Just the bad sensors that would corrode and throw false readings.

Thats kind of the nature of the beast. If you add stuff, it can fail.

Don’t get me wrong I’d rather take a trip in my 2023 F350 than my 1923 Model T but there is a LOT more to go wrong on the F350. I would be astonished (and very dead) if it’s still running 100 years from now, the T wouldn’t be a shocker but it’s already 100 and is a child’s toy, in terms of complexity, compared to the engines and drive trains of today.

 

[rockinbbar]

I wonder...

my 1994 6.5L Turbo Diesel had 200HP
my 2005 6.6L Turbo Diesel had 310HP
the new 2024 6.6L Turbo Diesel has 445HP

I'm thinking fuel economy sucks these days because buyers want bigger heavier trucks with more HP - not fuel economy.

Funny how newer diesels that have chips, or have been deleted have more horsepower and much better fuel mileage... Big brother doesn't want you doing that with something you own though.

As for myself, mine isn't deleted, and because it was built at the factory as a cab-chassis, it has less horsepower and torque than the retail type pickups sitting on the dealer car lots. It pulls what I want to pull just fine, but I wouldn't gripe about better fuel mileage.

 

[Hay Dude]

I wonder...

my 1994 6.5L Turbo Diesel had 200HP
my 2005 6.6L Turbo Diesel had 310HP
the new 2024 6.6L Turbo Diesel has 445HP

I'm thinking fuel economy sucks these days because buyers want bigger heavier trucks with more HP - not fuel economy.

You are correct.


I just ran across this truck on FB Marketplace.
Look at this tandem axle dump truck. Pretty big, huh? Probably carries 15+ tons, right?

Here’s what powered this truck back in the early 70’s.

A 186 Horsepower gas engine.

Now I don’t mind extra power in a truck, but this tandem axle dump truck, still running today and available for sale, managed to get the job done with 186 gasoline-powered horsepower.

Who on earth needs 400+ horsepower and 1,000+ ft lbs of torque In a pickup truck?

When the power ratings began to exceed 300HP/800TQ, it became really obvious this is all bragging rights.

I can tow 18 tons with my 360HP/850TQ Ram. Nobody needs 400+HP.
Nobody

 

[WM75Guy]

I do. Both my 2017 and my 2024 have the Duramax 6.6L with 445HP and 910 pounds of torque. Because that was the only diesel option available.

 

[rockinbbar]

I just ran across this truck on FB Marketplace.
Look at this tandem axle dump truck. Pretty big, huh? Probably carries 15+ tons, right?

View attachment 825666

Here’s what powered this truck back in the early 70’s.

View attachment 825667

A 186 Horsepower gas engine.

Now I don’t mind extra power in a truck, but this tandem axle dump truck, still running today and available for sale, managed to get the job done with 186 gasoline-powered horsepower.

Who on earth needs 400+ horsepower and 1,000+ ft lbs of torque In a pickup truck?

When the power ratings began to exceed 300HP/800TQ, it became really obvious this is all bragging rights.

I can tow 18 tons with my 360HP/850TQ Ram. Nobody needs 400+HP.
Nobody

Much truth!

My F-350 chassis cab will easily pull 30k lbs, even though the horsepower is turned down from even what a 3/4 ton pickup is.

It's about the gearing and suspension, as savvy folks already know.

 

[Hay Dude]

Much truth!

My F-350 chassis cab will easily pull 30k lbs, even though the horsepower is turned down from even what a 3/4 ton pickup is.

It's about the gearing and suspension, as savvy folks already know.

BRAKES!

 

[Hay Dude]

I do. Both my 2017 and my 2024 have the Duramax 6.6L with 445HP and 910 pounds of torque. Because that was the only diesel option available.

Understand completely. By the way-you have great taste in trucks. Those are super nice.
I just want a pre-emissions, non rusted cat-eye 3500 4WD for snowplowing.

 

[mikester]

I recently rented a Cat 317 excavator. The machine only had 400 hrs on it when they dropped it off. Within a few hours, the thing started throwing emission codes. The service tech said the DEF pump was not putting out enough pressure and needed to be replaced. Cat would only authorize changing the filter first, and then the pump if it continued. He changed the filter and said, “The pump is bad but I can’t change it because of warranty authorization. Call me when it does it again, and I will come back and put the pump on.” Had to call him the next morning! You can’t make money with rental equipment either if it’s going to be like this!

Time to change rental outfits. If my rental goes down I call the outfit...the clock stops and I get a replacement either same day or next morning. I'm paying to use a machine, it's their problem to make sure it shows up on time and works.

I deal with more than one rental company and both have the same policy.

 

[rockinbbar]

BRAKES!

Truth as well!
Had to pull by big tandem deckover with a 100hp tractor and 5000lb cutter a few times.

It'd pull the hell out of it! But stopping was another matter entirely...

 

[Paystar]

Nothing I own uses it so I really have no dog in the game anyway. I do buy DEF but I fertilize my hayfields with it via spraying it on. Great liquid fertilizer and much less expensive than 48% granulated urea is today. I always see where it's on sale then I buy numerous cases of it. It does smell like cat pee....

I can tell you one thing from experience. You don't want to smell DEF that mixes with engine coolant in your rad!!
Had a DD15 Detroit in a 2013 Western Star and the DEF tank heater (engine coolant flows through it to warm the DEF) developed a leak. I was on the road working and started to get the most severe ammonia smell in the cab. It was literally burning my eyes. It also turned the red extended life coolant a bright smurf blue color.
Dealer mechanic first told me "no way that can happen, rad has more pressure than DEF system so DEF won't go into rad."
Well I'm here to tell you it did! LOL And no coolant went into DEF tank.

 

[Paystar]

You are correct.


I just ran across this truck on FB Marketplace.
Look at this tandem axle dump truck. Pretty big, huh? Probably carries 15+ tons, right?

View attachment 825666

Here’s what powered this truck back in the early 70’s.

View attachment 825667

A 186 Horsepower gas engine.

Now I don’t mind extra power in a truck, but this tandem axle dump truck, still running today and available for sale, managed to get the job done with 186 gasoline-powered horsepower.

Who on earth needs 400+ horsepower and 1,000+ ft lbs of torque In a pickup truck?

When the power ratings began to exceed 300HP/800TQ, it became really obvious this is all bragging rights.

I can tow 18 tons with my 360HP/850TQ Ram. Nobody needs 400+HP.
Nobody

I really have a hard time believing the current power and torque ratings of these new pickup engines.
The new pickups now claim more horsepower and same torque as my old 350 Mack.
So these new pickups should be able to spin the wheels at will at any given speed at their weight and pull 140,000 pounds up 12% grades with no problem. LOL

 

[TimberFarm]

You are correct.


I just ran across this truck on FB Marketplace.
Look at this tandem axle dump truck. Pretty big, huh? Probably carries 15+ tons, right?

View attachment 825666

Here’s what powered this truck back in the early 70’s.

View attachment 825667

A 186 Horsepower gas engine.

Now I don’t mind extra power in a truck, but this tandem axle dump truck, still running today and available for sale, managed to get the job done with 186 gasoline-powered horsepower.

Who on earth needs 400+ horsepower and 1,000+ ft lbs of torque In a pickup truck?

When the power ratings began to exceed 300HP/800TQ, it became really obvious this is all bragging rights.

I can tow 18 tons with my 360HP/850TQ Ram. Nobody needs 400+HP.
Nobody

Hey, with the right gearing I could pull that truck with my riding mower.
But just like that truck when it was on the road, you sure as heck did not want to be behind it going down the road.
We had those trucks when I worked on an AF Base back in the mid-'70's. I don't know why the military had to pay for ordinance. All they had to do was drop those trucks on the enemy. Same thing...bombs.

 

[JimRB]

I thought I had read somewhere that you may have a 600 hp diesel engine but it will not take off from a standing start at 600 hp. No recall of how derated it is at the start.

I do haul 6 round of rye or fescue hay with my 2004 Dodge 2500 Cummins HO. For my use, a 4 cylinder Cummins would have been plenty of horsepower and torque.