tractor tipping question

[Too many Kubotas]

Anything that makes a machine harder to tip makes it easier to overload it, obviously.

Hmm...really? I put spacers on the rear of the tiny tractor, primarily for stability, but definitely don't understand how that would somehow make it easier to overload.

On one of the larger backhoes I widened the wheels and put wider tires on it, both to lower the contact pressure a bit and to add some stability. Can't see how that affects the ability to overload it.

If anything, I created a weaker rear axle by adding the spacers. Not that it affects loader capacity. My welds on the wheels can be a weak spot (on all four) and the change in offset is harder on the wheel bearings. Still, shouldn't make it any easier to overload either one.

 

[lilranch2001]

Oh crap…..

I washed the bedding this morning now I got to go put the bed together before I can take a nap

 

[Too many Kubotas]

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or what? If all the tractor's weight is on the front axle and the weight is not perfectly centered, it will tilt towards the heavier or downhill side. That isn't my opinion, that's a fact.

I suspect that you're strictly thinking about sidehill situations, but it seems like you're applying it across the board.

I'm discussing overall behavior of a vehicle, be it a tractor or a backhoe, on flat ground or at a side angle.

 

[BlueKnife]

I suspect that you're strictly thinking about sidehill situations, but it seems like you're applying it across the board.

I'm discussing overall behavior of a vehicle, be it a tractor or a backhoe, on flat ground or at a side angle.

My statement applies across the board. The tractor will tilt towards it's heavy or downhill side, whichever is a greater force, every time, without exception.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

My statement applies across the board. The tractor will tilt towards it's heavy or downhill side, whichever is a greater force, every time, without exception.

Well, my tractor is an exception, as is the little red one pictured above.

You're completely disregarding the stabilizing effect a load in a bucket or on forks can provide.

 

[CliffordK]

I’m not quite sure of the purpose of the blocks, and especially not sure why you want to be on two tires…

The blocks decrease the distance that the front axle can pivot, which allows him to more easily overload the front axle, loader, tires, wheels etc. with less risk of tipping. It significantly increases the chances of breaking something, since the "clue" of the rear getting light and the tractor pivoting on the front axle is less noticeable.

The goal isn't particularly to be up on 2 front wheels. However, the issue that is common is when the front end is overloaded, a single rear wheel pops up and the tractor tips until it reaches the stop on the front axle.

I have a sub-compact, emax 20s with a bucket and backhoe. A couple of times with a heavy load on the front (clamp on forks) I've felt a rear wheel lift off the ground.

Without the axle stops, the tractor will almost always roll to one side or another because of the center pivot on the axle.

Then depending on how the load is being carried, it will shift the load even further to the side. So, a chain suspended load will pull to the side where the tractor tilts. On my tractor, it seems to hit the axle stops before it has tilted beyond the point of no return. However, if one of the wheels falls into a hole, or you're on a slope, then that equation could be shifted towards being unstable. Also narrower wheels on the tractors could reduce the tilt stability. Ultimately it is very uncomfortable.

I don't know the front end strength of my old Ford. It seems to be built solid enough for what it can lift. There were a couple of Messick's clips I linked in another thread indicating that the front end strength of some of the newer compact tractors can be less than one would otherwise expect. And, his claim was that more ballast on the rear reduced the weight on the front (as long as one keeps it below the balance/tipping point).

Anyway, that load picking up the scissor lift might not have tipped, or it could have tipped over both the lift and the tractor had I not added the axle stops. That was a little unintended (as always), and shifted the weight on the bucket as I pulled the scissor lift off of the trailer.

It is easy enough to feel the floaty feeling with 90% of the weight on the front axle.

 

[lilranch2001]

I’m curious as to who is doing these calculations during “butt pucker”?

Whenever my butt has puckered, I just tried to resolve the situation that I’ve gotten myself into and not try to calculate where to put some blocks….

 

[sea2summit]

Ok, a while ago I made these little axle blocks for my little Ford.

View attachment 840505

The blocks helps the axle resist rolling, going between the factory stop and the axle. Pretty simple to make. Quick weld, and then drilling both the block and the axle stop on the tractor.

A month or so I changed from my tiller which I was using as ballast to the drawbar for towing, then didn't think about it.

If I do it right, I can get both rear wheels off of the ground without the tractor tipping to the side.

I don't know how dangerous it is when the tractor rolls over to the factory blocks, but it is very uncomfortable. Plus, I can now get 2 wheels off the ground, rather than just one.

My biggest issue is driving in certain areas such as climbing up away from my driveway where I can actually get the tractor driving on 2 wheels (one front, one rear). I have a wheel locker and need to use it from time to time.

I can't say if every tractor would work well with these blocks, but it is good for mine.

Old forklift forks have been bolted to my bucket. Top 2 bolts on each fork are visible. Then a piece of angle iron is welded near the front of the bucket with 4 more bolts. Unfortunately the configuration is mighty heavy.

You can’t be doing any good to that front axle. And why would you even…

I’m just gonna stop, proof not every idea on the internet is a good one.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

I’m curious as to who is doing these calculations during “butt pucker”?

It can become second nature, or instinct if you will.

For example, on one trail ride my then wife said "We're not going over, are we?" Yes we are I said. And about two seconds later the Jeep was on its side.

That particular time it was a beer induced problem. I had foolishly put five cases of beer in the far rear corner of the Jeep, and up somewhat high. That extra weight was all it took to change the familiar characteristics of the Jeep, so what it should've handled (on three wheels) it didn't.

 

[sea2summit]

Looks like a serious accident ready to happen.

Don’t worry, the blocks will make for a great read in the investigation.

 

[sea2summit]

However, if one of the wheels falls into a hole, or you're on a slope, then that equation could be shifted towards being unstable. Also narrower wheels on the tractors could reduce the tilt stability. Ultimately it is very uncomfortable.

So how’s it going to work if there is weight on that wheel but it can’t follow the couture when there’s a hole? Now you’re on three wheels best case? And the “90%” of the weight you’re trying to have on the front axle is now on one wheel of the front axle?

 

[sea2summit]

I’m curious as to who is doing these calculations during “butt pucker”?

Whenever my butt has puckered, I just tried to resolve the situation that I’ve gotten myself into and not try to calculate where to put some blocks….

When you go by butt pucker the best thing I’ve found to do is stop whatever I’m doing and try with two trips/less slope/different equipment/…

 

[BlueKnife]

Well, my tractor is an exception, as is the little red one pictured above.

You're completely disregarding the stabilizing effect a load in a bucket or on forks can provide.

No sir, your tractor is not an exception. No tractor will tilt towards the light or uphill side, ever. To do so would be to defy the law of gravity. If it appears to do so, it's because something in the weight distribution changed. The load on/in the bucket/forks is, of course, part of the weight distribution calculation. Not that it matters for this discussion, but for what it's worth, I've operated machinery including tractors, skid steers, excavators, wheel loaders, log loaders, cranes of all kinds, telehandlers, forklifts, boom lifts, scissor lifts etc. etc., ranging in size from 400 lb. lawn tractors to 40 ton excavators for over 30 years. Much of that has been on uneven, hilly or mountainous terrain where being intimately familiar with what the machine was going to do in a given situation was absolutely critical to the success of the job, at minimum, as well as the safety and well being of myself and others.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

No sir, your tractor is not an exception. No tractor will tilt towards the light or uphill side, ever. To do so would be to defy the law of gravity.

Alright, so I guessed correctly. You're mostly thinking hillside, or uneven load.

 

[lilranch2001]

Don’t worry, the blocks will make for a great read in the investigation.

And evidence in a lawsuit if anyone is seriously hurt….

 

[BlueKnife]

Alright, so I guessed correctly. You're mostly thinking hillside, or uneven load.

Of course. On perfectly flat ground, with everything exactly centered, it doesn't matter. A shift in the center of gravity towards one side is what causes objects to tilt or tip.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

A shift in the center of gravity towards one side is what causes objects to tilt or tip.

Or helps keep them upright.

 

[lilranch2001]

I really should have taken my nap…

 

[CliffordK]

Alright, so I guessed correctly. You're mostly thinking hillside, or uneven load.

It doesn't take much if an uneven load to cause the tractor to tilt. It is more about getting the leverage with the bucket in front of the front axles and a light rear end.

Don’t worry, the blocks will make for a great read in the investigation.

There won't be an investigation if my tractor stays upright, and somebody else's tractor flips with the stock configuration.

If you look at a fork lift, the front axle doesn't pivot, and the engine weight is far to the back. The front tires usually don't even pivot. Some of the off-road fork lifts look like backward tractors (thus a 3pt fork lift mast is probably better than using the bucket).

It is a basic design issue with front buckets on tractors. While the bucket may be fine for carrying dirt or gravel, it is very easy to overload it when using it to load, unload, or haul other items. Then the pivoting front axle makes a very dangerous roll to the side.

For my current uses, I probably wouldn't have chosen the Ford 1715. But it wasn't my choice at the time, and there seems to be a big push towards smaller tractors for the small lots.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

It is a basic design issue with front buckets on tractors. While the bucket may be fine for carrying dirt or gravel, it is very easy to overload it when using it to load, unload, or haul other items. Then the pivoting front axle makes a very dangerous roll to the side.

I find it most interesting when moving something heavy, hanging in chains from the loader bucket at nearly full lift.

Then having minimized the pivot ability would be great.