Need some home heating feedback: Wood boiler or fireplace insert?

[rbstern]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

 

[CliffordK]

Fireplaces and stoves are most efficient with the doors closed and outside air intake. Do you have that on your new house? Plus air circulation?

You mention a boiler. Any chance that you already have the house set up for water based heat? In floor heat tubing?

I'd get some good pictures and drawings of your fireplace and contact a company like quadrafire, or whoever their local installers are and have them give you an opinion.

I haven't used an insert. I've been meaning to get one installed for a few years.

For smaller houses, a good wood stove can push out too much heat. But, you also have to be good at getting it stoked in the morning, and keeping a fire going while you're around the house.

 

[rbstern]

House seals up fairly well, and the fireplace does have an outside intake.

No on the water based heat, but I have open an truss floor system in the main residence, and it's a a short, straight shot to the mechanical room, thru the trusses, right past the hot water lines. The inside plumbing for heat exchangers for both furnaces and the hot water lines would probably be the easiest part of a boiler project. The 2nd house/home office: A bit more challenging.

Maintaining a fire wherever we happen to be is no problem. The wood stove in our office building is older, but easy to get fired up. It's the first item of business on cold mornings, and it keeps our office warm all day without much effort. The upstairs of that house warms from it as well.

The main house: Not comfortable leaving an unattended, open fire in the fireplace, both in terms of keeping it going all day, how little heat it injects to the house, and the challenge of maintaining it.

With a fireplace insert, I'd get it going before I tended to the animals, come back from that chore and fill it to run all day. Refuel it in the evening for the overnight.

If I knew we'd get into using firewood the way we are, I would have built the house with an insert. Hindsight...

 

[ericm979]

A lot of prefab fireplaces specifically disallow inserts. Check your manual. You may well have the wrong flue for a modern insert. They need high temp insulated flues.

Our prefab disallowed inserts and we had the wrong flue. We replaced it with an EPA zero clearance fireplace which is basically an insert with an extra layer around it so it can go right next to the studs. It was expensive but worth it. The stove cost less than the flue! But we have a tall house. The prefab fireplace was really terrible for heat and my wife hated the fake rock surround. Replacing that was more cost. If the room had been larger I'd have gone with a regular stove, and that would have cost less.

 

[EddieWalker]

First and by far the most important thing you have to do is make sure that you have enough insulation in your attic. Here in East Texas, Code was R45 for attic insulation. I think that changed this year, but I haven't looked into it to be sure. R30 is about a foot of blown in insulation, so R45 would be about a foot and a half. I personally have R60 in my attic, which is considered the most you can have before it's not doing anything.

In just about ever attic that I go in, you can see the tops of the 2x6 ceiling joists. Heat rises, so the more insulation that you have in the attic, the less energy you lose.

I personally like the Attic Cat insulation that they have at Home Depot. If you buy ten bags, the rental for the machine to spray it into your attic is free. Depending on the house, I usually buy two or three pallets of insulations, and return what I don't use when I return the machine. Attic Cat doesn't itch and you don't need a mask when spraying it. When done, your attic should look like fresh snow. But once it's done, you should NEVER go up there. Your attic must look like fresh snow for all eternity.

Wall insulation and windows only equate to a small part of the equation. House wrap to keep the wind out, and silicone around the windows does more to keep the energy inside the house then the insulation does. You need both, and most houses have plenty in their walls, but they also tend to have horrible air leaks around their windows.

As for your current insert, a picture would really help. Odds are that its going to be a big job to replace it, but it might be worthwhile. For my house, I went with a wood stove and I'm really glad that I did. It heats my entire house all winter long. We got down to 8F last week, and we stayed below freezing for 4 days. Three years ago we bottomed out at -12F, which is the coldest I've ever been in my life!!! and it remained below freezing for the entire week. The wood stove worked great, and actually made it kind of fun.

If I had a fireplace insert that wasn't putting out enough heat, I would think very hard on getting a wood stove instead of buying another insert.

 

[thclimer]

I don't there is any fire place insert that could compete with a wood stove for heat output.

 

[rbstern]

A lot of prefab fireplaces specifically disallow inserts. Check your manual. You may well have the wrong flue for a modern insert. They need high temp insulated flues.

Our prefab disallowed inserts and we had the wrong flue. We replaced it with an EPA zero clearance fireplace which is basically an insert with an extra layer around it so it can go right next to the studs. It was expensive but worth it. The stove cost less than the flue! But we have a tall house. The prefab fireplace was really terrible for heat and my wife hated the fake rock surround. Replacing that was more cost. If the room had been larger I'd have gone with a regular stove, and that would have cost less.

I usually save all documentation. Finding it is another matter...but I found the fireplace manual. Quote from the install maual:

B. Wood Burning Inserts

WARNING! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline ofthe chimney.

The wording certainly suggests that it's possible. If I go insert route, I'll have a pro company do the work. If they recommend replacement, so be it.

 

[rbstern]

First and by far the most important thing you have to do is make sure that you have enough insulation in your attic. Here in East Texas, Code was R45 for attic insulation. I think that changed this year, but I haven't looked into it to be sure. R30 is about a foot of blown in insulation, so R45 would be about a foot and a half. I personally have R60 in my attic, which is considered the most you can have before it's not doing anything.

In just about ever attic that I go in, you can see the tops of the 2x6 ceiling joists. Heat rises, so the more insulation that you have in the attic, the less energy you lose.

I personally like the Attic Cat insulation that they have at Home Depot. If you buy ten bags, the rental for the machine to spray it into your attic is free. Depending on the house, I usually buy two or three pallets of insulations, and return what I don't use when I return the machine. Attic Cat doesn't itch and you don't need a mask when spraying it. When done, your attic should look like fresh snow. But once it's done, you should NEVER go up there. Your attic must look like fresh snow for all eternity.

Wall insulation and windows only equate to a small part of the equation. House wrap to keep the wind out, and silicone around the windows does more to keep the energy inside the house then the insulation does. You need both, and most houses have plenty in their walls, but they also tend to have horrible air leaks around their windows.

As for your current insert, a picture would really help. Odds are that its going to be a big job to replace it, but it might be worthwhile. For my house, I went with a wood stove and I'm really glad that I did. It heats my entire house all winter long. We got down to 8F last week, and we stayed below freezing for 4 days. Three years ago we bottomed out at -12F, which is the coldest I've ever been in my life!!! and it remained below freezing for the entire week. The wood stove worked great, and actually made it kind of fun.

If I had a fireplace insert that wasn't putting out enough heat, I would think very hard on getting a wood stove instead of buying another insert.

Insulation: We foamed the roof. Most of the house sq. ft. is the great room, with high ceiling and no attic.

The existing fireplace isn't an insert. It's just a manufactured fireplace: A Heatilator I80.

 

[EddieWalker]

Did you use open of closed cell foam? How thick? A lot of spray foam companies will sell open cell because its easier and cheaper, but it doesn't have great R Value. It also holds water, so there is a big issue with the damage it causes to the roofing. Closed Cell is very expensive, and usually most people only go with 2 inches, which is only R14, give or take a bit. Then they fill the rest with fiberglass, or they just leave it and wonder why it's not working. Do you know what your R Value is for your ceiling?

 

[MossRoad]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

We heat primarily with wood in the winter. We've been doing it for over 10 years. I love it.

However, with that said, it only pays off if you don't put a value on your time. It is a lot of work! It brings a lot of dirt and dust into the house, you have to haul ashes out (ours is only about every 3-4 weeks, but it still has to be done), and processing firewood takes time. I spend one day dropping trees, one day hauling them to the landing, 5 days sawing them into 16-18" pieces and hauling them home on the trailer, and 5 days splitting to get the 6 cords we use in the coldest winters. So at least 12 days a year doing firewood.

12days X 8hours = 96 hours.
96 hours X $20 an hour (what I value my time at) = $1920

I saved nothing.

Now add in the cost of saw, gas, tractor, trailer, splitter, stove or boiler, installation on top of the nothing you saved...

With that said, I enjoy the tasks involved in getting firewood, I'm outdoors, getting good exercise and cleaning up a lot of deadfall and/or nuisance trees. So it has great mental and physical benefits. Just don't believe it'll save you a lot of money IF you value your time. If you have plenty of time on your hands it's well worth it.

As for outdoor wood boilers.... be cautious of where you place it and the predominant winds. Can't count the number of times we've seen the smoke from a dampered-down outdoor boiler blowing right at a house, or a neighbor's house, or just across a road. Also, think about how many times you'll have to go outside to load it. Even on the nastiest of days, you'll still have to tend to it.

 

[CliffordK]

I usually save all documentation. Finding it is another matter...but I found the fireplace manual. Quote from the install maual:

B. Wood Burning Inserts

WARNING! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline of the chimney.

That isn't uncommon for a lot of wood stove installs. 6" stainless liner plus say 1" x 2 = 2" of insulation.

It may be tricky to get the chimney liner around a damper.

 

[CliffordK]

However, with that said, it only pays off if you don't put a value on your time.

Hmmm, I have enough down wood this winter from our ice storm that it could make a pretty good supply of firewood, and one has to get rid of the wood anyway.

Nonetheless, you may be right about your calculations of time and effort.

Do you enjoy using the chainsaw, axe, and splitter?

 

[jyoutz]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

We heated our last house with a fireplace insert and it worked well with a few caveats. The house was tri-level and we needed to circulate the air throughout the house. We used the fan on our forced air furnace to do that, along with a blower on the stove insert. Without running the furnace fan, it was hard to distribute the heat throughout the house.

 

[ponytug]

One more item on the outdoor wood boiler. As @EddieWalker pointed out, you do want to be aware of prevailing winds due to the smoke, but I would suggest that there is even more to it. Many brands smoke terribly in "normal" use. They light, start to burn, and then are damped down which cranks out smoke like a Hollywood smoke machine. If you can load them up and run it full blast until fully burned, it will reduce the smoke, but not all boilers tolerate it, and often that also requires a house with a high thermal mass, or high thermal losses, or a tolerance by the occupants for variable temperatures. I think that it might be informative to visit homes that have the brand/size boilers that you are considering during the winter when they are in use, so you can see if you are ok with the smoke.

Also, if your home isn't set up for hydronic in-floor heating, outside boilers aren't terribly efficient at delivering heat into the home. If you do dig your own lines, insulate the trench with a couple of inches of foam panel, in addition to the insulated pipe rolls that the boiler companies sell.

Personally, I would much rather have a wood stove, with an outside air feed, and triple ignition/catalysts. YMMV...

All the best,

Peter

 

[MossRoad]

...

Do you enjoy using the chainsaw, axe, and splitter?

Yep. Quite a bit, actually. The tractor, too.

Just putting some reality to the economics.

 

[MossRoad]

We heated our last house with a fireplace insert and it worked well with a few caveats. The house was tri-level and we needed to circulate the air throughout the house. We used the fan on our forced air furnace to do that, along with a blower on the stove insert. Without running the furnace fan, it was hard to distribute the heat throughout the house.

Sometimes just a ceiling fan running will break up the airlock in a house.

In our house, the wood burner is in the basement. You'd think the heat would rise up the open stairs to the 1st floor, but it doesn't. The cold air on the 1st floor tries to sink down the stairs, and that tends to lock the warm air in the basement. I ended up putting a duct over the wood burner with an in-line fan that moves the warm air upstairs to a duct in the living area. It's on a thermostat so when the wood burner room gets to 78, it comes on and when it drops to 75, it goes off. Also, I put a 6" computer fan in the basement rafters to move some air from one side of a wall into the wood burner room. That broke the air lock in the stairwell and things are pretty nice now. It's on the same thermostat.

 

[Oaktree]

Ponytug makes some good points. I've known a couple people who've had outside boilers, and neither would do it again. First of all, they're expensive to buy and install. You'd need some sort of heat exchanger inside the house to interface it to whatever sort of heating system you have, whether it's forced hot water of forced hot air. Not sure what's typically used where the OP lives.
Secondly, these aren't very practical for dealing with taking the chill off on a cool evening, they take a while for them to heat up and circulate into the home system. Best used for continuous heat.
Pony already mentioned the smoke...many jurisdictions don't allow them for that reason, if you live where inversions tend to happen, the whole neighborhood smells like smoke. They also aren't very efficient, between the need to run them fairly hot, and the inefficiencies in the heat exchanging process.
This wouldn't apply to the OP as I think he lives in Georgia, but since the boiler is outside you'll have to go out in the cold to refill it, not fun when it's 0 or below.
The upside to them is that the house stays a lot cleaner, not having to do with ashes, bark chips, etc.

Don't have any experience with inserts, nor do I know anyone who has one.

 

[geteh]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install, perhaps with some inspiration from Toca Boca Stories.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

I recently moved to the country north of kansas city. I have 3.5 acres with limited access to wood ( 3-6 cords a year). I have a 1.5 story house with full finished basement totaling 3500 square feet. I currently heat with propane which is about 400 month! I want to supplement that with either a high efficiency wood stove insert or outdoor wood burning boiler to reduce propane costs. I have construction experience and would be able to do most if not all of the installation myself. There is a dual sided gas fireplace centrally located between my kitchen and main living area that we don't use. The main living area has very high cathedral ceilings. Two bedrooms are upstairs connected by a catwalk which are open to the cathedral ceiling. At first I was leaning towards the Outdoor boiler but am concerned about excessive wood use. I believe the location of my current fireplace would be great for a stove insert. I would enclose the kitchen side of the fireplace with drywall if I installed the wood stove insert. Another problem I have is I am on the road traveling about 10 nights a month and can't tend to the fire. My wife agreed to take care of firing up while I am gone but I am not sure how well that will work with the OWB. I want to be able to have the fire burning while we are at work. Can the wood stove insert burn safely unattended? Anyone have any suggestions as to why I should lean towards one heating method or another? I have attached a picture of the living room side of my fireplace and a picture looking upstairs from the living room.

 

[nybirdman]

Northern N.Y.,we get real winters here.I cut and burned wood for myself and my parents,30 cords per year on our property.Wood itself was free ,the rest not!
I replaced my wood stove with a Vermont Casting propane unit(38K) ,primary is forced air oil.That was 25 years ago and don't regret at all.Plus with the propane stove,it works if we loose power.
My son as an out-door boiler,again wood is free outside of labor,gas,tractor ect.He burns at least 30 cords per year.
There are more efficient units but they require dry wood and cost 2k more.
If you have neighbors smoke may be a problem.
One of my sisters tried a pellet stove;big mistake;they switched to a propane boiler.
As you get older;wood looks a lot less appealing.
Put your money into insulation I.M.H.O.

 

[Smokeydog]

Have a Buck model 91 wood stove. Can be used free standing or how we use it as an insert. Even though had a good masonry chimney, used double wall insulated SS flue pipe. Self cleaning, better draw and added safety feature. Don’t need kindling, starts like a blow torch.
After 20years of primary heat now backup to ductless heat pump. Can’t cut wood that cheap but still like a fire when it really gets cold in our old log farm house.

Catalytic stove so very efficient and clean burning. At the time had biggest fire box of different brands. Takes 24” long wood. Have changed the catalyst once and probably needs it again. Can smell wood smoke sometimes outside. 12 hour burn time. 33 years in use.