Shop build and heating in 2024

[ericm979]

Despite the amount of National forest and BLM land I still dont know how it works getting beetle kill wood off the slopes. I know they have a lot of rules banning motorized vehicles and power tools like gas powered chain saws, so I am going to have to see how firewood is brought off the mountain before I make any commitment to heating with wood. Its mostly softwood too, so thats another hurdle. Lots of volatile resin and very little in coals.

Unless it's wilderness area, USFS land is generally open to vehicles and chain saws. Except under red flag conditions when fire danger is very high. Then they might shut down the forest and keep people out.

It varies some but personal use firewood permits are usually a nominal fee like $5-10/cord. There's often a map that shows where you can cut. They don't want people cutting in timber sales or around recreation areas. There usually are rules about what you can cut. For example, standing dead only and within 100' of the road.

This should all be on the web site for the forest in question. You can find maps on line to tell you which forest and ranger district within a forest that a particular area is in. Or you can stop at a ranger station and ask, they will be happy to help.


For attics you want ventilation if the attic is air sealed from the conditioned space with an insulated ceiling, but not if it's a "hot deck" where the underside of the roof is insulated.

 

[westcliffe01]

Unless it's wilderness area, USFS land is generally open to vehicles and chain saws. Except under red flag conditions when fire danger is very high. Then they might shut down the forest and keep people out.

It varies some but personal use firewood permits are usually a nominal fee like $5-10/cord. There's often a map that shows where you can cut. They don't want people cutting in timber sales or around recreation areas. There usually are rules about what you can cut. For example, standing dead only and within 100' of the road.

This should all be on the web site for the forest in question. You can find maps on line to tell you which forest and ranger district within a forest that a particular area is in. Or you can stop at a ranger station and ask, they will be happy to help.


For attics you want ventilation if the attic is air sealed from the conditioned space with an insulated ceiling, but not if it's a "hot deck" where the underside of the roof is insulated.

There was a major blow down event a few years ago with 130+ mph wind. I know for a fact that motorized vehicles and chainsaws were not allowed as part of the remediation job. I think the blown down trees laid on the ground for the nest 5-6 years till a fire came through.

 

[ponytug]

There was a major blow down event a few years ago with 130+ mph wind. I know for a fact that motorized vehicles and chainsaws were not allowed as part of the remediation job. I think the blown down trees laid on the ground for the nest 5-6 years till a fire came through.

That's an unusual ruling in my experience, which has been in line with @ericm979's, but forests are managed individually, and perhaps the USFS had concerns about accidents due to the blow downs being tangled, or otherwise unstable.

Good luck with your ventures.

All the best,

Peter

 

[westcliffe01]

I got some clarification on a local facebook bulletin board.

 

[westcliffe01]

There is also this offer from a local lumbermill. Buying slab wood seems pretty economical. $160 per cord for bundled birch slab wood is not bad.

 

[kenmac]

well, I've got a 40x80 shop and I don't work out there on really cold days. But if I had to, I bought one of those torpedo heaters that I use to warm up the area I'm working in.

 

[westcliffe01]

Im going to be earning my living in my shop, I wont have any sort of fixed income for at least another 7 years. I also have early onset arthritis so its important for me to be comfortable in my work space. I dont need to worry about cooling because of the altitude (about 3F drop per 1000 ft if I recall) and it is sunny compared to many places in the US.

One can see the daily low even in summer is down to 40F and certainly lower than that at times. Highs in summer up to 80, but it is a dry climate so it doesnt feel near that warm. One can have frost up to May and then starting again at the end of September. I will have a lean to roof on the south side that will hold the solar array and it will have a concrete floor with a considerable amount of glazing so will always be getting passive solar heating on that side of the building. Im sure that some circulating fans can help move that heat around to keep the shop space warm.

 

[civilian]

If the concrete absorbs the passive heat, if you have pex in that floor to preheat or heat the fluid and route that warm fluid to your work areas floors? Might work? Jon

 

[westcliffe01]

I wasnt planning on putting radiant heat under the porch concrete. The idea was that the glazed in area would provide a comfortable environment even in cold weather, so long as there was sunshine, where the typical wind would make it too uncomfortable in the outdoors. There would also be extensive views in that direction which one could enjoy in addition to the local wildlife.

 

[miscjames]

Thank you all for the input. What is your take on a mini split? If i put in a few ceiling fans to assist with moving the air around. Signature solar has a 12000 btu unit that will run off solar panels. So i would just need to power it at night. The complete kit with panels is about the same price as the under slab insulation. But would this unit be enough? EG4 Hybrid Solar Mini-Split Air Conditioner Heat Pump AC/DC | 12000 BTU | SEER2 22 | Plug-N-Cool Do-It-Yourself Installation (PRE-ORDER)

 

[KennyG]

I think 12K is a little light for your application. It's hard to know exactly what you need since the amount of insulation, windows, doors etc all impact it. I think I would look to put in at least twice that heating capacity.

 

[gstrom99]

I built a 54 x 28 shop, inside my 54 x 72 pole barn. I was going to put in radiant heat, but the $ was too high. I DID put 2" foam board under the concrete floor though. I had the side walls spray foamed and ceiling has 12" blown in insulation. For heat, I have a Modine Hot Dawg heater (like this but mine is 100k btu) https://www.supplyhouse.com/Modine-HD45AS0121FBAN-HD45-Hot-Dawg-Power-Vented-Heater-LP-45000-BTU in an upper corner. This my first winter with it. I'm very happy with it. I have a through-the-wall A/C unit, for summer heat/humidity.

 

[miscjames]

I built a 54 x 28 shop, inside my 54 x 72 pole barn. I was going to put in radiant heat, but the $ was too high. I DID put 2" foam board under the concrete floor though. I had the side walls spray foamed and ceiling has 12" blown in insulation. For heat, I have a Modine Hot Dawg heater (like this but mine is 100k btu) https://www.supplyhouse.com/Modine-HD45AS0121FBAN-HD45-Hot-Dawg-Power-Vented-Heater-LP-45000-BTU in an upper corner. This my first winter with it. I'm very happy with it. I have a through-the-wall A/C unit, for summer heat/humidity.

How much propane are you using?

 

[gstrom99]

How much propane are you using?

I'm in North Central Iowa and have a wood stove suplementing the house heat, (and this winter has been mostly milder) so I can't quote usage/comparison #'s, sorry. I'd say "It doesn't run much" when I'm out there working. I keep it set at 45 and bump it up to 60 to work out there.

Since you're in the planning stage, here's a couple inside pics for ideas:

 

[Oaktree]

I got some clarification on a local facebook bulletin board.
View attachment 851252

I wonder if these regulations vary by region. It's been a few years, but back when I'd get a permit to take wood from NFS land, you were only allowed to take what was dead and down...no dead standing trees. No motor vehicles were permitted either.
Typically, I'd hit sites that had been logged the previous winter. Usually plenty of slash big enough to make it worthwhile. Had to huff it out myself, I suppose if I had a draft animal I could've used that but I didn't so I didn't.

These regulations were enforced. I got "carded" at least once a season. Was always in compliance, but the rangers implied that I was in the minority.

 

[gstrom99]

How much propane are you using?

I'd suggest talking to a few local HVAC shops, for free quotes (ideas - DIY?) for what would work best for your locale. I paid for the heater, concrete, insulation, car lift and roll-up doors; and did the rest of the build myself. Those insulation boards sure are pricey (I bought them in stages while I was still working), aren't they?

 

[miscjames]

I'd suggest talking to a few local HVAC shops, for free quotes (ideas - DIY?) for what would work best for your locale. I paid for the heater, concrete, insulation, car lift and roll-up doors; and did the rest of the build myself. Those insulation boards sure are pricey (I bought them in stages while I was still working), aren't they?

Yes they are. I heard that propane heating produces moisture have you experienced this?

 

[gstrom99]

Yes they are. I heard that propane heating produces moisture have you experienced this?

The Hot Dawg heater(s) use outside air for combustion and is "power vented", so I've seen no added moisture into the shop. I did buy, but haven't even taken out of the box, a LP torpedo type heater. I would NOT recommend one of those, for a permanent solution. I put the foam board down and around the exterior "rat guard"/footing and with the spray "closed cell" insulation, it is warm, dry and draft free.

 

[westcliffe01]

Be very careful with unvented heaters. There is a fairly considerable amount of water produced for every gal of propane burned and has to be some risk with CO and CO2 also. Its amazing how unvented heaters have come to dominate the market because they save the cost of a chimney or direct vent style system, thus they are always the cheapest solution.

 

[miscjames]

The Hot Dawg heater(s) use outside air for combustion and is "power vented", so I've seen no added moisture into the shop. I did buy, but haven't even taken out of the box, a LP torpedo type heater. I would NOT recommend one of those, for a permanent solution. I put the foam board down and around the exterior "rat guard"/footing and with the spray "closed cell" insulation, it is warm, dry and draft free.

May you post a picture of this set up :

I put the foam board down and around the exterior "rat guard"/footing and with the spray "closed cell" insulation,

Also do these run off like a propane grill tank or would i need to get one of the larger permanent tanks?