Calling all the armchair arborists

[HawkinsHollow]

I have started my addition demo of existing small covered porch. The rain got me though and I made a bit of a muddy mess. I want to lay some gravel down to keep the mess from spreading. However, one of my main concerns is the health of the tree in the background it is a HUGE red oak and we love it and are doing everything in our power to keep if happy through all this. I know I need to allow water to get to this tree and limit compaction around the roots. Do you think 57's or crusher run would be a better gravel type to put in the muddy mess? It is not really deep mud, jus that kind of surface mud, inch or 2 deep. This area will probably remain a gravel area after the renovations as it will be a firepit area. I am hoping to use crusher run because I need about 4 tons of crusher run at my moms down the street to make a pad for her prefab shed that is coming in a few weeks and I am going to have the guy dump half the load here and half at her house. What says ye? Will crusher run take care of this mud and will the tree be OK with it?

 

[Rockbadchild]

The tree will fine, if lets say you do 1 ft lift of backfill you would need to leave a box around the tree trunk so he doesn't suffocate and if you do a proper box the trees live fine. It is true that weight from traffic affect the roots and the tree but usually that apply for vehicle not really backfill. Although gravel is heavier but I don't think 2 or 3 inch would cause arm, sand or pure stone would be better for weight and water flow. Don't compact it and don't put it too close to the tree truck and perhaps water it a few times during the dryer months if gravel is used these would be my recommendation.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

I am a little neurotic about this tree, so I am going to keep asking questions about this and see what your thoughts are. I will probably ask these same questions in Arbortalk forum as well to get a more advice from actual tree people.

But my next question is about gravel permeability. A bit of background: This tree is going to be losing A LOT of moisture in this area of mud because all of the water that runs through this area will be diverted into pipes out the other side of the property. ALL of the water that hits our property runs right through there, it is a 8' by 1 inch deep river when it is raining hard. I am sure the tree loves it. Whatever I put there I know needs to be permeable so whatever rain that falls from the sky in that area seeps into the ground to satisfy the tree roots in that area. I would love to make it all pavers but I think it is not permeable enough and root movement would probably cause crazy uneven pavers over time. So my plan is to use either the semi rigid or flexible permeable pavers. There are differnt grades of flexibility on them.

I tell you all this to ask. Whatever I put down tomorrow is going to be the base of this system and that base needs to be permeable enough to allow water to make its way down to the tree roots. Does crusher run pack too tight to stay impermeable, especially mixed with some existing mud? Would I be better off with 57s or something similar. Again, the only reason I was going to go with crusher run was for the convenience of one trip on the truck. They are only bringing it a mile, so if I have to pay for 2 separate deliveries it is not the end of the world. HELP? I know I am over thinking it, but again... I LOVE this tree.

 

[dstig1]

I don't have an opinion on the rock BUT... the rule of thumb is to not drive over the area around the tree inside the dripline of the canopy. Good contractors will fence around trees like this to make sure equipment stays away.

 

[Rockbadchild]

I am a little neurotic about this tree, so I am going to keep asking questions about this and see what your thoughts are. I will probably ask these same questions in Arbortalk forum as well to get a more advice from actual tree people.

But my next question is about gravel permeability. A bit of background: This tree is going to be losing A LOT of moisture in this area of mud because all of the water that runs through this area will be diverted into pipes out the other side of the property. ALL of the water that hits our property runs right through there, it is a 8' by 1 inch deep river when it is raining hard. I am sure the tree loves it. Whatever I put there I know needs to be permeable so whatever rain that falls from the sky in that area seeps into the ground to satisfy the tree roots in that area. I would love to make it all pavers but I think it is not permeable enough and root movement would probably cause crazy uneven pavers over time. So my plan is to use either the semi rigid or flexible permeable pavers. There are differnt grades of flexibility on them.
View attachment 867563
I tell you all this to ask. Whatever I put down tomorrow is going to be the base of this system and that base needs to be permeable enough to allow water to make its way down to the tree roots. Does crusher run pack too tight to stay impermeable, especially mixed with some existing mud? Would I be better off with 57s or something similar. Again, the only reason I was going to go with crusher run was for the convenience of one trip on the truck. They are only bringing it a mile, so if I have to pay for 2 separate deliveries it is not the end of the world. HELP? I know I am over thinking it, but again... I LOVE this tree.

personally I would recommend a layer of sand first so the water can get under the crusher run, but on the same token clay is very impermeable probably more then crush run and heavy rain like the one that would cause a 8' x 1'' river will run through and very little get in the soil. Also there is ways around it like a slow drip reservoir... a few small lines in on the ground with holes perforated in them and you have a elevated reservoir make it so it just drip and take like a month to empty then you can do what ever you like on top. But watch too much water is as worse as not enough.

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought for sure a large heritage live coastal oak was a goner when the homeowner regraded and raised grade 4’ at the tree.

That was 40 years ago and tree is as magnificent as ever.

Soil was not packed and lots of serpentine rock in the build up and we typically have half a year with no rain.

Nothing packed… just loader buckets dumped.

 

[Rockbadchild]

I thought for sure a large heritage live coastal oak was a goner when the homeowner regraded and raised grade 4’ at the tree.

That was 40 years ago and tree is as magnificent as ever.

Soil was not packed and lots of serpentine rock in the build up and we typically have half a year with no rain.

Nothing packed… just loader buckets dumped.

Protecting Existing Landscape Trees from Construction Damage Due to Grade Changes - Earth-Kind® Landscaping Earth-Kind® Landscaping

Texas A&M University - Academic analyses and information on horticultural crops ranging from fruits and nuts to ornamentals, viticulture and wine.

aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu

 

[ultrarunner]

Agree but not what happened…

 

[workinonit]

I've learned my lesson about building permanent structures under "beautiful" oak trees. What a mistake.

 

[jyoutz]

The “rule of thumb” for working around established trees is to avoid doing things that compact or cover the soil under the drip line of the tree crown (at a minimum). A wider no disturbance zone is better yet.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

I've learned my lesson about building permanent structures under "beautiful" oak trees. What a mistake.

Can you elaborate? It is what it is at this point. I have 3 choices; cut the tree down, move or put the addition on. I am choosing option C.

 

[workinonit]

Yes. I made a valiant attempt to save all of the oak trees around my house. Oaks shed tons of leaves which aren't very good on the roofing. They also drop tons of limbs which aren't very good on the roof. But the roots are the worse. They will tear up foundations. The limbs on my trees also rubbed the shingle edges on the roof and destroyed the shingles. I had to remove all of the ones close to the house and now I have 5 or so that are going to have to go around my shop. I could have cut them myself for free early on but I had to spend several thousand to have them removed after they had gotten so big. That tree you're in love with will end up costing you big in the long run.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

Yes. I made a valiant attempt to save all of the oak trees around my house. Oaks shed tons of leaves which aren't very good on the roofing. They also drop tons of limbs which aren't very good on the roof. But the roots are the worse. They will tear up foundations. The limbs on my trees also rubbed the shingle edges on the roof and destroyed the shingles. I had to remove all of the ones close to the house and now I have 5 or so that are going to have to go around my shop. I could have cut them myself for free early on but I had to spend several thousand to have them removed after they had gotten so big. That tree you're in love with will end up costing you big in the long run.

I see your point and I am sorry your trees have caused you so much grief and heartache.

Luckily this one is not close enough to the house to rub on anything. Limbs do concern me, but we have been actively pruning them to help minimize that risk. Leaves are just a fact of life here in the Southeast. And as far as roots this is an OLD and well established tree, that was here well before the house was built. I do not think it is creating much more root structure at this point. Luckily the majority of the branches and the slight lean of the tree is in a best case scenario direction away from my house and my neighbors.

Basically it would cost me thousands to take this tree down now and I would not be able to live with myself. I would also lose hours of energy saving shade all summer long. If it dies or becomes an issue in the future it will cost me the same thousands to take it down. I am going to take the risk.

 

[2manyrocks]

My Mother had a large oak tree near the porch of her home. Acorns would drop onto the porch roof. The mice carried the acorns into her house and tried to take over.

It was a beautiful tree, but large branches were starting to fall off onto the roof of her house. Oak leaves filled the gutters repeatedly in the fall. I ended up paying a tree service to remove it. I hated cutting that tree.

I wouldn't want to put gravel in my yard as a means of solving a water problem. Is there any other realistic alternative of solving the water problem?

 

[HawkinsHollow]

My Mother had a large oak tree near the porch of her home. Acorns would drop onto the porch roof. The mice carried the acorns into her house and tried to take over.

It was a beautiful tree, but large branches were starting to fall off onto the roof of her house. Oak leaves filled the gutters repeatedly in the fall. I ended up paying a tree service to remove it. I hated cutting that tree.

I wouldn't want to put gravel in my yard as a means of solving a water problem. Is there any other realistic alternative of solving the water problem?

The water problems are going to be solves by creative drainage solutions. The gravel is for the short term mud problems.

 

[2manyrocks]

It's still wet where I am in Middle Tennessee, but the ground will dry hard as concrete in a few months.

I really would try to avoid using gravel in my yard as a short term solution to mud. Could you use temporarily use sawmill slabs to cover the mud and then remove them once the area dries out?

 

[HawkinsHollow]

I have lived with this tree for 8 years and so far it has not cause me any grief yet, only hours and hours of energy(read money) saving shade. I do not plan on taking it out unless it gets sick or compromised in some way.

 

[2manyrocks]

A little mud isn't the end of the world. Every job site has it.

 

[jyoutz]

I have lived with this tree for 8 years and so far it has not cause me any grief yet, only hours and hours of energy(read money) saving shade. I do not plan on taking it out unless it gets sick or compromised in some way.

The best bet in keeping it healthy is to avoid disturbing the ground under the drip line. Any changes to soil grade or adding anything under the drip line will kill the roots in the impacted area.

 

[bigtiller]

How about spreading a few pallets around the work area?