17.5" Wheels

[3Ts]

I have a new dump trailer that I had 17.5" wheels put on. The dealer took off the 16" and put on the 17's meaning a different hub, rim, and tires. My understanding is that the 17's come in both hub centric and lug centric versions. The saleslady said these are lug centric, but they don't look like it to me because the holes for the wheel studs are not tapered. I also asked about the 1st, 2nd, & final lug nut torque specs and she said they were for the first 10miles, then 25 miles, and 50 miles. But, the 1st torque setting was just 25 ft lbs. :shocked: That can't be - can it? especially when the final torque is around 140 ft lbs. I think the 1st, 2nd, 3rd means you go around tightening all the nuts to the 1st number, then do it again to the 2nd number, and the 3rd time to the 140 ft lbs.

So, I'm not convinced the saleslady knows whether they're lug or hub centric. So how do I tell, because if they're hub centric, I think I've got the wrong lugnuts on there. Hub centric should have a flat washer style instead of the cone nuts.

Here's a picture of the wheel mounted on the axle, and a picture of the spare showing that there is no cone in the wheel stud holes. and a third picture of another wheel off a different trailer showing the cone.

 

[4570Man]

It looks like a hub centric wheel and hub but is it the matched pair and fit tight?

 

[nisaacs]

I have a new dump trailer that I had 17.5" wheels put on. The dealer took off the 16" and put on the 17's meaning a different hub, rim, and tires. My understanding is that the 17's come in both hub centric and lug centric versions. The saleslady said these are lug centric, but they don't look like it to me because the holes for the wheel studs are not tapered. I also asked about the 1st, 2nd, & final lug nut torque specs and she said they were for the first 10miles, then 25 miles, and 50 miles. But, the 1st torque setting was just 25 ft lbs. :shocked: That can't be - can it? especially when the final torque is around 140 ft lbs. I think the 1st, 2nd, 3rd means you go around tightening all the nuts to the 1st number, then do it again to the 2nd number, and the 3rd time to the 140 ft lbs.

So, I'm not convinced the saleslady knows whether they're lug or hub centric. So how do I tell, because if they're hub centric, I think I've got the wrong lugnuts on there. Hub centric should have a flat washer style instead of the cone nuts.

Here's a picture of the wheel mounted on the axle, and a picture of the spare showing that there is no cone in the wheel stud holes. and a third picture of another wheel off a different trailer showing the cone.

Yes, you are correct, they installed the wrong nuts. You can use a clamp ring and your cone nuts or get flange nuts. Some have the solid flange or a swivel flange. Your studs might be too short for a clamp ring. I assume they are 9/16's? Some clamp rings will work on 9/16's or 5/8's studs, some are 5/8's only. Yes, you are also correct on nut torque and sequence.

Flange nuts are probably the cheapest solution. Here is a picture of the clamp ring and some nuts.

 

[3Ts]

Here's an update. I called the dealer today and talked to their service department. They acknowledged the situation and said they've been doing it that way for many years and haven't had a problem. They said they use cone nuts on 9/16" studs and flange nuts for 5/8" studs all with the same wheel rims. (It looks like they took them off another trailer that had them mounted with flange nuts) At the end of the call they said that it is what it is, implying that they really don't care whether it's right or wrong. So, that now brings up 2 more questions 1) If I change to the flange nuts, will I have a problem with the wheel rotating on the hub since the holes are big enough for a 5/8" stud? 2) Do I have the right rim to use with cone nuts or do I need a different rim? or #3) does it really matter? I really don't want to be on the side of the road with a broken rim and 5 ton load.

 

[nisaacs]

I would not use them as they are. If you call Dexter about it I am sure they would be appalled. I don't think the wheel hole size would hurt anything with 9/16's studs and the right lug nut, or use a clamp ring. They do make 17.5 stud centric wheels for 9/16's studs but that is expensive if on your dime. Can you sell yours?

Here is a link that has both type wheels. The fine print is pretty specific about what wheel to use with what stud and lug nut.

Rickson Wheel Manufacturing

 

[3Ts]

This is going to be interesting, but probably combative after the service guy's statement. The saleslady is on vacation this week so I'll talk to her and see what she says. I've started a log of calls and contact information.

I found the wheel rim manufacturer's specs and it says the flange nuts are required for this wheel. I'll probably have to pull a wheel to get the number off the hub but it's probably a cone style, so they've mixed the two styles. So, the trailer is just siting in my yard and it won't be going anywhere until this is resolved.

I am expecting the dealer to make this right since they made the modification and I bought it from them one week ago.

 

[nisaacs]

Have you registered your trailer with the factory yet? If not, I would asap. If you don't get satisfaction from the dealer that would be my next call. The factory upgrade to 17.5 tires and wheels for 7k axles is option #Y2BS. The factory warranty department will know exactly what parts are used/needed for that upgrade, even if the dealer don't.

The way I understand the upgrade, hubs with at least 9/16's" studs are required, that the 1/2" studs will not work. My guess is you have the right hub. By looking at your picture, it appears that your cone nuts are 60 degrees, so they wont even work with the clamp ring.

You are on the right track, by parking the trailer and getting some answers.

Some items I looked up on PJ's parts selection that might be a part of the Y2BS upgrade, might include these items, depending on the route they use.

Tension Ring for 5/8" Cone Nuts

Lug Nut, 9/16"-18 x 9deg Cone

Lug Nut, 9/16" Swivel Flanged Flat Wheel

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

I would just return the trailer and get a refund on your money.

I'll never understand why some folks will put up with this garbage from a (any) dealer.

Especially on a new (not used) piece of equipment.

Take it back. Get a refund. Go somewhere else that won't jerk you around.

 

[Hay Dude]

Sounds like a somewhat hot mess. Thing you have to remember is your safety and the safety of others. IMHO, the dealer took matters into their own hands altering a safety system. The statement that theyve been doing it that way for years is kind of frightening.
If you dont get anywhere with them, I would do a work around with another reputable dealer.

 

[crazyal]

Another way around this would be to have a lawyer draft up a letter stating that the dealer certifies that the parts they used are correct and they take full liability for any failure. Then ask for the owner to sign it. A friend had an issue with a new 2003 GMC 3500 and a trailer. I don't remember the full details but the trailer dealership had to cut into one of the hydraulic brake lines and install a pressure sensor. Everything was done as they always had done it. However for some reason the antilock brakes failed to work correctly. If the antilocks kicked on the brake pedal would immediately go to the floor. One of his employees found out the hard way. After a rain storm washed some gravel onto the road the antilock brakes kicked on. He hit another car and pushed it into the ditch. He finally stopped about 1/4 mile down the road. GMC said "not our fault, we didn't install that sensor". The trailer dealership said "it's an anti-lock brake problem, not us".

If you have a problem then Dextor (if they make the axle) will say that you have the wrong wheels. The trailer dealership will try to find an excuse why it's not their fault leaving you with a years long fight. In a year or two the trailer dealership will say it's your fault. It's new, make sure you have the correct wheels.

 

[3Ts]

Here's the latest as of today (Monday Nov 16, 2020).

I have the wheel rim info that says flanged nuts are required and cone nuts are the wrong ones from the spec sheet - post #6

I have an email from PJ Trailers saying that flange nuts are to be used on this style of wheel rim.

I have an email from Dexter axle saying that the 17.5" rim has to be the cone type to the 9/16" studs and the flat faced one is only to be used with 5/8" studs and flat faced lug nuts.

I have a 2nd email from PJ Trailers saying that the rim the dealer installed is the wrong one.

Looks pretty clear to me what the solution needs to be. I've sent these emails to the saleslady at the dealer along with the chart from rickson. She is going to talk to the manager to see what they're going to do.

I'll update this as things develop.

 

[nisaacs]

Sounds like some good answers, now if the dealer will get on board with the two factories.

 

[3Ts]

And the saga continues:

I received a call from the saleslady's manager and he explained that the reason they use cone nuts is because the rim hole is 5/8 and the stud is 9/16 so the cone nut is used to take up the slack. He also implied that the person I got the info from at PJ trailers was just trying to sell me more stuff. It all sounds plausible so far.

Then I received an email from PJ trailers saying that the lug nuts needed to be the swivel washer flange nuts and provided a link to them. However, the link says it's for 8k axles with 9/16 studs. I have a 7k axle and I wonder if it makes a difference. I do not see any hub centric drums for a 7k axle, only one idler hub.

I've received many comments from people ranging from auto mechanics to machinists for NASA. They all say not to use the combination the dealer provided.

Today I pulled a wheel just to see if I could change it on the side of the road. What I found was that after the lug nuts were loosened and away from the rim, they still needed a wrench to remove them. They should be able to be turned by hand at this point. I found metal shavings that had been pushed into the hub and the threads on both the stud and nut on all 8 were damaged. The nut could not be threaded back on. So now I have a trailer with 3 wheels and the 4th is in the barn until we get this next part resolved.

P.S. I'm submitting a warranty claim to PJ Trailers, we'll see what happens.

 

[Barnbuilder]

Wonder if the studs could be pressed out, bored and 5/8" studs pressed in.

 

[3Ts]

The hubs do not appear to be set up for a 4.75" pilot in the rim, so that's the reason for the cone lug nuts. It if was, then the 5/8" studs would be the solution, if I could get someone to do it. I talked to a machinist that probably could, but he won't touch the wheels - probably due to liability.

 

[nisaacs]

The hubs do not appear to be set up for a 4.75" pilot in the rim, so that's the reason for the cone lug nuts.

You are correct. If the machined surface on the hub is not the same size as the ID of the wheel it is not hub centric. The only fix is stud centric wheels (tapered stud holes and tapered nuts), nothing else will work. No clamp ring or flat faced nuts at all. The fix is all new studs, nuts and wheels. PJ is not going to want to fix the dealers mess, since they did the conversion, not PJ. They will probably tell you to take it back to the selling dealer. My guess is, if you do take it back (and you need to) they will want to re-install the 16's. Hopefully, fix the studs and nuts and give your money back. They will not want to buy new wheels on their dime.

Man I feel your pain, what a mess. Stand your ground, the 17.5 upgrade is worth it.

 

[Buppies]

Hopefully PJ and the selling dealer will take of this for you

 

[Peter 315]

I was at the LT dealer and asked him about putting 17.5 rims in place of the 16'' rims on 7k Dexter Axles and was told wont fit, I found this rim 19.5 that will fit...8-Lug Rancher - 19.5x6.75 - Boar Wheel

 

[Hay Dude]

I was at the LT dealer and asked him about putting 17.5 rims in place of the 16'' rims on 7k Dexter Axles and was told wont fit, I found this rim 19.5 that will fit...8-Lug Rancher - 19.5x6.75 - Boar Wheel

Maybe a lift kit and dual shocks, too? :laughing:

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

Step one:

Take the trailer back to your dealer and drop it off.

Step two:

Get your money back.

Step three:

Drive somewhere else and buy a trailer.

Step four:

Enjoy a harmonious life.