2210 carbon monoxcide posining with cab

Soundguy · Apr 11, 2005

I wonder if there is any difference between straight diesel, blended fuels, like kero, other distalates added like injector cleaners, biological agents, stabilizers, anti-gell addatives.

Also, biodiesels and fuels made from rape-seed oil come to mind. i wonder what the burn and emmission characteristics of these are?

I know my NH manual tells you to change the oil more frequently when using a biodiesel or rapeseed oil based fuel.

Soundguy

SkyPup · Apr 11, 2005

Biodiesel fuels give an even higher percentage of nitrogen oxides emissions, although cutting back the fuel injection event timing by 5% crankangle can decrease that to equal to petrol based #2 diesel by helping to curb peak combustion chamber pressures which directly decreases peak flamefront burn temperatures which is directly associated with the production of nitrogen oxides in compression ignition engines.

As far as CO though, none of the different fuel variants make any difference whatsoever, although biodiesel fatty acid methyl esters do contain oxygen atoms whereas pertrochemical derived diesel fuel does not. Having even more oxygens in the fuel molecule themselves adds to the increased oxidation and even less CO production. Adding any oxygen to any combustion event wheter it be charcoal, coal, kerosene lantern, propane lantern, natural gas stove, etc. will always decrease CO formation.

Soundguy · Apr 12, 2005

I take it then that it is not the fuel itself, but the ignition method that makes most of the difference?

I ask this as in the antique world, there are quite a few 'all-fuel' engines that start on gas then change over to TVO/distalate/Kero/diesel. Also.. kero heaters have a CO warning on them as well as propane heaters.

Soundguy

SkyPup · Apr 12, 2005

Hydrocarbon based petroleum derived fuels are composed of hydrocarbons (HC), petro hydrocarbons do not contain many oxygen atoms just lots and lots of carbons and hydrogens, to create heat they must be combusted, to be combusted they must be oxidized, to be oxidized they need oxygen. The more oxygen provided the more (CO2) carbon dioxide in the exhaust stream and less (CO) carbon monoxide. Compression ignition engines provide much higher amounts of air molecules per fuel molecules in the combustion chamber when compared to spark ignition engines resulting in much lower CO but also much higher (NOx) since there is more air present. Remember, air is a mixture of gases. Some of these gases are elements, e.g. Oxygen, while nitrogen and others are compounds, e.g. Carbon dioxide. The main gases in the air are nitrogen, 78%. Oxygen, 21%, others, 1%. Among the others are carbon dioxide, about 0.03%, noble gases, about 0.9% and varying amounts of water vapour depending on the weather.

If you are concerned about Carbon Monoxide poisoning, you should be extremely cautious with your 100cc 4-stroke single cylinder spark ignition gasoline lawnmower engine as well as your 50cc 2-stroke single cylinder spark ignition weedwacker gasoline engine, but NOT your 2-3 liter 3-4 cylinder diesel engine in your tractor.

Henro · Apr 12, 2005

If you are concerned about Carbon Monoxide poisoning, you should be extremely cautious with your 100cc 4-stroke single cylinder spark ignition gasoline lawnmower engine as well as your 50cc 2-stroke single cylinder spark ignition weedwacker gasoline engine, but NOT your 2-3 liter 3-4 cylinder diesel engine in your tractor. 

 "...unless your air intake is so clogged up that your diesel engine is operating abnormally..." 

This thread is VERY interesting and informative.

So I need to ask...is the text in red above fair to say?

Skypup, I ask because I got the impression from links referenced in posts above that an improperly operating diesel engine CAN produce CO in dangerous amounts, and your statement seems to either ignore this possiblility or dispute it...

KENSFM · Apr 12, 2005

( "Some of these gases are elements, e.g. Oxygen, while nitrogen and others are compounds")

I think that you will find that Nitrogen (N) IS an element, and NOT a compound as you have stated.
Ken /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

KiotiJohn · Apr 13, 2005

( Skypup, I ask because I got the impression from links referenced in posts above that an improperly operating diesel engine CAN produce CO in dangerous amounts, and your statement seems to either ignore this possiblility or dispute it... )
It's a broken record from what I see. No CO in diesels, no matter what studies show. Dangerous attitude, and to follow it blindly may lead to serious consequences. I have no doubt that other ingredients in diesel fumes are more prevalent, but this tact totally ignores the cumulative effects of CO in the human body.
It's not just restriction of air flow that can lead to greater CO output, it's a myriad of things that are also ignored here.
I've nothing more to say on the subject, I'm just sorry that some people who don't know their elements, seem to know all there is about CO production.
Put your life in the hands of caution. John

SkyPup · Apr 13, 2005

( "...unless your air intake is so clogged up that your diesel engine is operating abnormally..." 

This thread is VERY interesting and informative.

So I need to ask...is the text in red above fair to say?

Skypup, I ask because I got the impression from links referenced in posts above that an improperly operating diesel engine CAN produce CO in dangerous amounts, and your statement seems to either ignore this possiblility or dispute it... )

Yes, when your diesel is running extremely rich from malfunction and the exhaust is pitch black and so thick you can not see through it, breathing it becomes more dangerous as far as CO goes.

An yes, atomic elements do become compounds when they are bonded together by ionic bonds such as N2, O2, CO2, etc. as they occur naturally in the atomsphere.

And super big double YES for KiotiJohn, when you are suffering from cystic fibrosis, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, emphysema, pulmonary embolism, asthma, lung cancer, congestive heart failure, anemia, iron deficency, hemolytic anemia, etc. etc. etc. then of course you are much more susceptible to the effects of carbon monoxide.

But remember, the carbon monoxide released from inhaling the smoke from one tobacco cigarette is more than what you will get from an equal volume of diesel exhaust. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

So don't smoke while you are working on your tractor either or else real bad things may happen to you. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

TMcD_in_MI · Apr 13, 2005

( An yes, atomic elements do become compounds when they are bonded together by ionic bonds such as N2, O2, CO2, etc. as they occur naturally in the atomsphere.)

Although we are talking minor details here, and getting pretty far away from the original post, there are a couple of errors in this statement. First, it is definitely correct that N2 and O2 molecules exist, but they wouldn't be referred to as compounds in any chemistry text I have ever seen, since the molecules contain only one element. Second, and we are really getting far afield here, the molecules mentioned are all bonded covalently, not ionically.

Regards to all,

Tom

Soundguy · Apr 13, 2005

( your 100cc 4-stroke single cylinder spark ignition gasoline lawnmower engine as well as your 50cc 2-stroke single cylinder spark ignition weedwacker gasoline engine, but NOT your 2-3 liter 3-4 cylinder diesel engine in your tractor. )

Like I said though.. There are 'all fuel' spark ignition engines that burn diesel, kero, and distalate / TVO.. I'd guess at that point they fall into the same problems as a gas / spark engine.. and not as 'safe' as a diesel engine using compression ignition.. correct?

Soundguy