RobJ
Elite Member
patrick_g said:
Man I just have a gear tractor you know. But the whole GODS's thing has me worried. I'm sort of a 1 God dude. But I trust you!!
2wd Always?
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Man I just have a gear tractor you know. But the whole GODS's thing has me worried. I'm sort of a 1 God dude. But I trust you!!
SPYDERLK
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I wasnt making a joke. In post # 119 I was trying to show the applicability of that thread to this thread based on posts in this thread that you had had some involvement in.RobJ said:Now see larry this isn't funny, you forgot theon the previous post indicating you were funnin around. Usually your posts are full of technical info that requires your thought and time to type. I don't think we'd expect a joke. My wife does this sometimes...she'll make a joke (we're not sure) and me and my 15yo and 18yo will look at her like we are looking at a stump. Mom doesn't make jokes...usually...so we don't laugh because it might be real. Not worth the risk of upsetting momma!! You know the old saying, momma sneezes and the rest of us catch a cold!!
I'll be on my guard next time you rascal!!
larry
Bob_Young
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I refuse to read another 15 pages on this too often rehashed subject. I would, however, like to make one point:
Many of the full-featured MFWD Ag tractors of 100HP on up have the ability to sense the need for FWD (through wheel slippage) and automatically switch into and out of FWD as needed. The process is completely transparent to the operator.
If running in FWD all the time is such a good idea, why would the designers of these tractors go to the trouble of developing and marketing such a system?
If the Ag crowd sees the value in a tractor that only uses FWD when needed, why wouldn't these same values apply at our level? These are people who aren't frivolous with their money.
Maybe the next bell/whistle that needs to be added to the generation of Deluxe CUTs that's just over the horizon is automatic FWD....for those who prefer not to be troubled by yet another decision.
FWIW
Bob
Many of the full-featured MFWD Ag tractors of 100HP on up have the ability to sense the need for FWD (through wheel slippage) and automatically switch into and out of FWD as needed. The process is completely transparent to the operator.
If running in FWD all the time is such a good idea, why would the designers of these tractors go to the trouble of developing and marketing such a system?
If the Ag crowd sees the value in a tractor that only uses FWD when needed, why wouldn't these same values apply at our level? These are people who aren't frivolous with their money.
Maybe the next bell/whistle that needs to be added to the generation of Deluxe CUTs that's just over the horizon is automatic FWD....for those who prefer not to be troubled by yet another decision.
FWIW
Bob
daTeacha
Veteran Member
Has anyone here watched a big Ag tractor doing serious work? Tire slip is normal. The rear tires often are spinning faster than the tractor is moving. No, not a lot, but enough to notice from a side view. Radial tires reduce the slippage some, but not entirely. If the fronts are also driving, there is less slip, but some still occurs. The automatic 4wd systems simply have a preset amount of rear slip allowed before engaging the fronts since it's a little hard to tell from the seat how much slip is going on.
As Pat so eloquently pointed out, the proportions between tractor mass and implement mass or driving force needed are very different for our little machines than for the big stuff. Size does indeed matter. When I had that episode with the hickory tree over my fence this winter, the guy who moved it finally did so with a piece of mining equipment -- a front end loader with a bucket that can lift around 15000 lb if I recall. That machine, with tires about 7 feet tall and 3 feet wide, was unable to get to the location due to lack of traction until the ground dried out some, but my little tractor had no problem. That machine could lift the tree and my little tractor at the same time, but it was helpless when there was a few inches of mud over frozen ground.
The point is, as has oft been stated herein, everything we do or try depends on the circumstances at hand. One of those circumstances is the operator, another is the ground conditions, another is the tire type and degree of wear, another is the balance of the tractor at the time the task is attempted. There is no final solution. So just keep tossing out those anecdotes and sooner or later we'll all have a storehouse of different degrees of success in almost any situation we might encounter and this thread will live forever, or at least until it takes off and flies away over a recirculating river.
As Pat so eloquently pointed out, the proportions between tractor mass and implement mass or driving force needed are very different for our little machines than for the big stuff. Size does indeed matter. When I had that episode with the hickory tree over my fence this winter, the guy who moved it finally did so with a piece of mining equipment -- a front end loader with a bucket that can lift around 15000 lb if I recall. That machine, with tires about 7 feet tall and 3 feet wide, was unable to get to the location due to lack of traction until the ground dried out some, but my little tractor had no problem. That machine could lift the tree and my little tractor at the same time, but it was helpless when there was a few inches of mud over frozen ground.
The point is, as has oft been stated herein, everything we do or try depends on the circumstances at hand. One of those circumstances is the operator, another is the ground conditions, another is the tire type and degree of wear, another is the balance of the tractor at the time the task is attempted. There is no final solution. So just keep tossing out those anecdotes and sooner or later we'll all have a storehouse of different degrees of success in almost any situation we might encounter and this thread will live forever, or at least until it takes off and flies away over a recirculating river.
RobJ
Elite Member
SPYDERLK said:
THIS link isn't working either..
RobJ
Elite Member
Bob_Young said:
Sort of like a traction control on cars and a few Polaris ATV's if I recall. Sensors on the wheels like an ABS system. Dunno if I'd want all that extra wiring and stuff on a tractor that I beat up in the woods clearing trails.
But Bob there is some good and fun reading in all 150 or so posts!!
daTeacha
Veteran Member
Hmmm. Let's think about the traction control a bit. On most cars with the cheapie system, they work by simply cutting engine power until the wheelspin stops. On other, more sohisticated systems, the computer applies the brake on the wheel that is slipping, sort of like lightly applying the footbrake in a non-automated 4x4 system to stop the spinning on one axle and let both of them drive together.
On a CUT, none of which have anything resembling a motion retarding device or brake of any kind on the front wheels, how would you make the thing work? Apply a brake to the front driveshaft? Lock the center diff? Selectively apply the steering brake to the best wheel? Or would you cut power, which probably wouldn't be well received in the market? Final option would be to add mechanical/electrical/hydraulic brakes to the front wheels as in the automotive world, thus raising the cost of the machinery by a pretty good margin. Maybe that's what's coming, but then they might as well give them more road speed and headlights, too, to earn a HST (high speed tractor) rating.
That brings you almost back to something like the original issue Jeep with a FEL and 3 point on it. I have heard stories of folks using them to plow with after the war, but cannot personally verify that. Can anyone here?
On a CUT, none of which have anything resembling a motion retarding device or brake of any kind on the front wheels, how would you make the thing work? Apply a brake to the front driveshaft? Lock the center diff? Selectively apply the steering brake to the best wheel? Or would you cut power, which probably wouldn't be well received in the market? Final option would be to add mechanical/electrical/hydraulic brakes to the front wheels as in the automotive world, thus raising the cost of the machinery by a pretty good margin. Maybe that's what's coming, but then they might as well give them more road speed and headlights, too, to earn a HST (high speed tractor) rating.
That brings you almost back to something like the original issue Jeep with a FEL and 3 point on it. I have heard stories of folks using them to plow with after the war, but cannot personally verify that. Can anyone here?
Egon
Epic Contributor
Yup, we had a neighbour that plowed with a jeep. But then he bought a tractor.
Two wheel drive in snow:
YouTube - Ford 8n tractor Stuck in snow
But then he bought a tractor. Two wheel drive in snow:
YouTube - Ford 8n tractor Stuck in snow
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AchingBack
Elite Member
I can't read this thread without thinking of the numerous times I have seen wannabe 4 wheelers stuck in the mud, waiting for a tow. Now, to enlighten you, daTeacha, here is a beautiful look at the past. http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Photos/Farm/KW1706Thousands.JPGdaTeacha said:
Mahindra & Mahindra Limited - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am on the look out for one of these old farm Jeeps.
patrick_g
Elite Member
Bob_Young said:
All to often manufacturers have to build what matches potential buyers' expectations, even when the feature may not be the best choice from an engineering standpoint.
Pat
patrick_g
Elite Member
daTeacha said:
I have seen movie footage of fields being plowed with a Jeep. The footage was shot shortly after the war.
Pat
RobJ
Elite Member
AchingBack said:
4wd in trucks mean you just get stuck further in the woods, harder to recover. I've seen stuck pictures of tractors here with the same thoughts. Tractors are terrible in the mud, they just sink!
Egon
Epic Contributor
Ohh!! I hope were not going to go with only two wheel drive on P/U's. During winter months mine wold never be able to return up the driveway let alone even get close to the driveway!
RobJ
Elite Member
john_bud said:
I stand corrected!!
If I have to play in the mud...I use an ATV!
daTeacha
Veteran Member
Apparently Egon does not have one of the long gone but not forgotten VW front wheel drive pickups to go with his B7100.
Pat -- absolutely. Marketing decides what gets made. If they think it will sell for a profit, they will build it, regardless of the engineer's recommendations about what might be better. Why else would we have luxuriously appointed monstrously oversized 4x4 SUVs that cost so much the owners are afraid to get them dirty, much less take them anywhere the paint might get a scratch from a branch or a chip from a flying bit of gravel? As I write this there is nearly new Lincoln Navigator sitting in the paved parking lot, driven here by a single smallish sized female on paved roads in good weather. There are numerous 4x4 vehicles driven by both staff and students. I wonder if any of them actually ever engage 4wd, given that we tend to close school if the pavement is less than completely clear.
Pat -- absolutely. Marketing decides what gets made. If they think it will sell for a profit, they will build it, regardless of the engineer's recommendations about what might be better. Why else would we have luxuriously appointed monstrously oversized 4x4 SUVs that cost so much the owners are afraid to get them dirty, much less take them anywhere the paint might get a scratch from a branch or a chip from a flying bit of gravel? As I write this there is nearly new Lincoln Navigator sitting in the paved parking lot, driven here by a single smallish sized female on paved roads in good weather. There are numerous 4x4 vehicles driven by both staff and students. I wonder if any of them actually ever engage 4wd, given that we tend to close school if the pavement is less than completely clear.
Egon
Epic Contributor
My truck has 4 wheel drive engaged at quite optimum opportunities which is not that irregular. Dammed if I know what the cost of this is.
But I do know it would not move very well in winter conditions without the the four wheel drive! I do know that in this locality four wheel drive is a blessing come winter time!
N80
Super Member
john_bud said:
Well, here is why I like 4wd. And no, I did not get stuck. And yes, my tractor often looks like this. And no, I have never been stuck. (Of course that last bit of information is the type of statement which karma cannot resist correcting so I have no doubt that my next post will involve pictures of my little Kubota being extracted from some unimpressive looking puddle by my B-I-L's 100 hp TWO WHEEL DRIVE ag tractor.) But, up until this moment...I haven't been stuck.
And I'm pretty sure that if I do get stuck on my place, it will not be in the mud, it will be in the sand in the creek bed. R1s perform horribly in the sand, converting forward motion very effectively into downward motion. The closest I've come to being stuck was in the middle of the dry creek bed.
And as for the big Ag tractors having 'traction control', well, I imagine that is more to get traction to the wheel that needs it most rather than preventing wear and tear. Just a guess.
pitt_md
Veteran Member
When tilling my field I put the MX5000 in mud up to the undercarriage before I got it stopped. I did get out but just barely! I have R4's and was wishing I had the ag tires (R1's??) right about then. The R4's filled with mud and looked like slicks. 4WD saved the day!
patrick_g
Elite Member
Actually in most supposedly 4wd CUTs they are actually 3WD and that is only when you stand on the diff lock! The front typically does not have limited slip.
Just think of the simplification if tractors were made SENSIBLY with just one wheel drive. Normally tractors sit on all their wheels so whichever wheel was the ONE driven wheel would be in contact with the ground. IF 2wd is so superior to 4wd then just think how much better 1wd must be. You don't need that old maint prone differential or a diff lock. You could save on tire fill and just fill the one driven wheel if the fill were a traction thing and not ballast.
Tire wear would be virtually elliminated on the other (non driven) tire. Of course you could equalize the wear and lengthen the service life of the driven tire by alternating the tires between driven and non driven service.
Surely this superiority through reduction ab adsurdum has not escaped the engineers and designers of tractors and are probably only prohibited from introducing 1wd models by an international conspiracy headed by tire and other manufacturers who are looking after their own best long range interests NOT THOSE OF TRACTOR OWNERS!
Pat
Just think of the simplification if tractors were made SENSIBLY with just one wheel drive. Normally tractors sit on all their wheels so whichever wheel was the ONE driven wheel would be in contact with the ground. IF 2wd is so superior to 4wd then just think how much better 1wd must be. You don't need that old maint prone differential or a diff lock. You could save on tire fill and just fill the one driven wheel if the fill were a traction thing and not ballast.
Tire wear would be virtually elliminated on the other (non driven) tire. Of course you could equalize the wear and lengthen the service life of the driven tire by alternating the tires between driven and non driven service.
Surely this superiority through reduction ab adsurdum has not escaped the engineers and designers of tractors and are probably only prohibited from introducing 1wd models by an international conspiracy headed by tire and other manufacturers who are looking after their own best long range interests NOT THOSE OF TRACTOR OWNERS!
Pat
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