3 point back hoes

[W5FL]

This thread was started by ejb and moved to a new topic. I meant to put it in attachments, but obviously didn't do it. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

"Whats your opinion of 3pt backhoes? Is there any reason, besides the money of course, that you wouldn't want one? I know we have similar sized tractors (JD 5410), and I have been considering adding a backhoe at some point, but was also thinking maybe it would be better to buy a dedicated backhoe, used but good enough for my needs, instead of stressing the tractor (not to mention the convenience of not having to mount it every time I want to use it).

Thoughts?"

There is a long article on http://www.carverequipment.com that describes a lot of problems with 3 point backhoes. The biggest problem is that if the top rigid link comes loose, you can get squished against the ROPS in about 1/2 a second. No ditches around my place need digging that bad.

I know for a fact that I would not have a 3 point mounted back hoe. I want mine to be strictly frame mounted.

Frame mounting is much stronger and with a heavy and strong tractor the frame mounted unit can do more work safely. The back hoe needs to mount very close to the tractor or you can get on high center with the back hoe.

John Deere makes some very nice backhoes. They were a little expensive (over $10,000) when I was looking at them.

I plan to get one, but have not done the research to find out what is available, although Woods seems to make quite a variety. I belive Mark has one of theirs in use now as do several other people on the board. I am sure they can put you onto the best information.

 

[ejb]

So its only the 3pt attached ones that you object to? I probably wasn't clear, but I would only get a frame mounted on as well, I guess I really meant, whats your opinion on backhoes that can be added to your tractor...it was just easier (and less clear) to say "3pt".

That said, would you add a backhoe to you machine if you could justify it financially, or do you think that tractors are an inappopriate place to hang a hoe, and a machine for hire or dedicated machine would be a better solution. WOuld a frame mounted backhoe unduely stress the tractor, and when you are not using the hoe, any idea how hard it is to take off? and then, is the frame still on there and in the way of other things?

There...hope thats clearer.

(I seem to remember the Deere 10A was about $10K as well, I will probably get the Deere model if/when I can justify it).

 

[W5FL]

Since I don't use my tractor for hire, I can pretty well choose what tasks I am going to do a little in advance. I would only consider adding a back hoe to my tractor as opposed to using a seperate machine. I will admit to looking awfully close at the L35, which is really a workhorse with a tremendous sized hydraulic pump for the hoe, but I use the 3 point attachments for most of my work and the hoe would just be for special projects that I would like to have done. If it took 2 hours, that would be ok with me to change in that amount of time. I can't drive over and rent and return with an L35 in that amount of time.

The thing I would really like to have on a hoe is a hydraulic hammer. That is a rock buster and a half. Don't know exactly what they cost, but so far everything intended for rock duty is higher than I think it should be.

Mark has a subframe on his tractor and I remember him saying he removed the hoe, but I thought the subframe stayed with the tractor.

Any hoe that will mount on your tractor will be a pretty heavy duty one anyway. I would not be concerned with hurting the tractor.

On another note.....

The local John Deere dealer told me the biggest problem they had with the 10 series was broken loader bolts. That they had to be really tight and if they ever slipped, they would shear the bolts. I would watch them pretty carefully after that kind of caution. I don't have big enough of an impact wrench to tighten the lug bolts or the loader bolts, but I hit them as hard as my 1/2 inch will go and that should at least be sure they are near 200 ft pounds - which is not to spec, but it is pretty darn tight.

 

[MChalkley]

I've got a Bradco backhoe on my L4310HST and highly recommend them. They use a 4-point connection subframe that doesn't require you to remove any part of the 3-point hitch to install the backhoe. To my knowledge, they're still the only subframe-mount backhoe with this feature.

I personally wouldn't consider a 3-point hitch mounted backhoe because of the potential for injury Wen mentioned, and also because of the potential for breaking the tractor in half. I know the issues as far as "well, if the manufacturer makes it, it must be ok", but that's not good enough for me. Besides, it's too easy for someone to say "Well, it's always been fine for everybody else, so you must've been abusing it. Did you notice in the fine print that breakage due to abuse isn't covered by the warranty?"

Mark

 

[TomG]

Just a note for people who haven't made up their minds: I think there is a responsible and reasonably safe role for 3ph hoes. I have one. True, it's not a big a hoe as I could have hung on the tractor, and I do restrain myself from attempting very heavy-duty things.

I have a 3ph hoe because I have a dozen or more relatively small digging job a year to do. That translates into a lot of time taking a sub-frame mount on and off unless I can plan things so most of digging jobs can be done at the same time. And of course, the sub-frame would stay on the tractor even when the hoe wasn't. I'd likely have a different attitude if I had more than one tractor.

Regarding safety: I believe the main risk of a 3ph compared to a sub-frame mount is having the hitch lift with an operator in the hoe seat. A lift can raise before anybody could bail out of the seat, and the lift lever is not within reach. The risk is especially high for tractors with lift draft control.

However, 3ph hoe mounts are designed so the lift is locked down, when the mount is properly installed and adjusted. Yes, the mount and adjustments do have to be checked every few hours. In addition, I run my hoe from my spooling valves (I use a bungee cord to hold the rear hydraulics valve open). I'm almost certain my lift doesn't operate with the first section spooling valve is held open (I'll probably check it for sure first thing this morning).

The hoe seat also could raise if the top link bracket broke while the hoe was holding down pressure. I'm not sure the seat would raise as completely as it would if the lift raised. It would rotate on the lower link pins. However, the risk of injury should be less than with the lift raising, because the operator's hands are on the hoe controls.

Roger, on another board, mentions a tendency for 3ph hoes to be carried higher than sub-frame hoes. 3ph hoes are further from the tractor, and the hoe bottom, or especially a cached bucket, drags when going up hills. The result is that 3ph hoes may have reduced tractor stability, compared to a sub-frame mount, when the hoe is transported. True; stability always is an issue.

Safety issues are things that should be kept in mind. However, my notion is that everything done has a risk. Even not doing something has a risk. Driving a truck with a trailered tractor is more risky than driving the truck without the trailer, but many people do it anyway. The question we really should consider before doing anything is whether the risk is acceptable.

For myself, I believe the main risk is operating a tractor-mounted backhoe of any type. Within that risk, 3ph hoes may be somewhat more risky, but the added risk is acceptable. Of course, I've also been a flyer, scuba diver, mountain climber, motor cyclist and soldier. In accepting the added risk of a 3ph hoe to the tractor, and myself, I also recognize there is a responsibility to ensure use of the hoe is appropriate and the mounts are checked regularly.

 

[JerryG]

The Massey Ferguson 1217 backhoe that fits on the 1240's,1250's and the 1260's has a subframe. I don't need to take ANY of the three point equipment off to install the backhoe on my 1250. The whole installation process takes ten to fifteen minutes. The subframe mount is the way to go. It is more solid and is safer. JerryG

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Tom, Good points on the 3 point. I had a 3 point that tried it's best to tear the tractor up and/or itself. I was however using it as you would a dedicated backhoe (Case 580) where you can use it as an auxiliary engine to position the tractor in tough spots and doing all kinds of strenous things with it.

I on the other hand ran into a fellow with a nursery that has a 3pt and loves it as all he is is doing is sometimes digging up the big stock to move in soft ground.

From what I can see, the older the 3 pt the worse it is safety wise and the older the frame mount is the harder it is to remove. New versions of the frame mount can come off very quickly. I haven't had the need to pull the hoe off of my L35 but was fortunate enough to watch someone do it on theirs and it is quick. And newer 3pt have or you can add, a brace that prevents the 3pt from lifting it up no matter what else fails.

Now if you had one of those quick-hitch attachments for your three point stuff (landpride.com, freedom hitch, etc) the 3 pt would go on really easy.

A commercial operator who has much more experience then I do has told me that when using the backhoe (especially a 3 pt) it should only be lifted so the rear tires are unloaded but no higher as you have maximum stability when the rear tires are still on the ground. I see guys running big backhoes all the time with the rear tires 2 feet off the ground and always wonder. If it's a matter of repositioning the tractor to be able to reach something it's different of course.

Then there's the matter of some of the small tractors that are being used with belly mowers. I haven't seen a setup yet that allows a bellow mower with a frame mount. I'm sure one of these days though the rear end of the tractors will be engineered to allow at least a rear subframe.

 

[MChalkley]

TomG - That was some really well put together info. Thanks for going to the trouble to post it. I'm sure that will help a lot of folks.

Mark

 

[MChalkley]

Del - I posted a long time ago that seeing a backhoe jacked way up in the air was a sure way to spot a rookie in action. It turns out, after further examination, that I was wrong. It's a sure way to spot a rookie or an experienced operator with no relevant education. Experience can teach a person safe and sometimes clever ways of doing things, but it can also engrain bad habits to the point that, to them, there's no other way to do it.

I'll never forget the story of the woman who saw a friend going through some elaborate procedure in order to bake biscuits on the top burner of her stove. When she asked her why she didn't use the oven, the lady said it was because her mother made them that way. Anyway, it made the lady curious, so she finally asked her mother why she made them that way, and she said "Oh, I only did that for a little while when the oven was broken."

Mark

 

[jgh]

2000-06-25

Here is a report on "driving" a Woods 1050 backhoe on a JD 5310, at a local JD dealer on Saturday. I have been primarily looking at getting a Bradco, but Woods might be an alternative.

the facts-
New, but on a used tractor
My first time ever using a backhoe
Painted green like the tractor
3 pt hitch connected (with Woods's proprietary mounting enhancement)
24 inch bucket
16.9x30 rear tires, 540 loader on the front
Auxilliary hydraulic pump
Ran tractor at 1500 rpm

OK, several things stood out:

This is a powerful backhoe! It appeared to be some kind of sturdy. The seat seemed well placed and comfortable, though the true test there is several hours of use, on/off the operator's station, etc.

It made the tractor wobble and/lurch a bit every time I swung the boom side to side, and many times when I played out or took in boom length. Sometimes the wobble was pretty strong.

I'll bet the stabilizers could easily lift the tractor up, though I did not confirm this by doing it.

The valves seemed less than highest grade. The boom lever tended to stick a bit.

It did not seem to strain the engine, though I did not actually dig (dealer's lot, come on). Woods valving has been criticized a bit in some quarters.

It appeared to be properly hitched & set up. I have pictures if anyone would like to see it and eval whether it was indeed connected properly. The salesman helping me had never seen a tractor backhoe operate.

In general, I intend to renew my efforts to find a way to mount a subframe on my new NH TN90F (due in Monday), but I want to drive a subf mounted unit b4 panicking. If that perceived unsteadiness is normal, I'll find out.

Another location (same dealer) has several Bradco models, which I intend to see Monday or so.

I am now better but not sufficiently informed. Hope this helps this discussion. Please, keep talking, friends.

Jim