3-Point Hitch 3-Point Backhoes

KENB · Feb 16, 2005

I spoke to my Mahindra dealer regarding the purchase of a Mahindra 509 (Bradco), since I hear it is an awesome unit. But my dealer is encouraging me to go with a 3 point backhoe instead . Possibly the Bradco 3 point. He says he would go with the 3 point over the subframe because the subframe 509 is expensive. I told him my concern of damaging the tractors by using a 3 point backhoe, and that is why I was interested in the subframe mount. My dealer says that since I have a loader (it is the ML112), that there is no problem putting a 3 point backhoe on my 4110 /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif.

Recently, I have came across a deal with on 3 point backhoe (Kelley B30), for around $2k, so I was considering buying this unit for my 4110. I would be using it for things like digging up stumps, cleaning out a drainage canal/ditch on my property.

I know I have heard of guys splitting their tractors in half with a 3 point backhoe, but I did not know that a FEL would keep that danger from happening. Has some logic to it because of the weight at the front with the frame and all of the FEL, but I am still skeptical. Any feedback would be appreciated.

AndyMA · Feb 16, 2005

Baloney... I've had 5 different backhoes on different machines. All of the ones on other than my New Holland TN (heavy duty Cat II hitch) were subframe mounts. each of these mounts tied into the loader frame making for very rigid assemblies. I would not run a 3pt backhoe on anything smaller than a Utility tractor with a Cat II hitch. The loader itself will be of no help as the place where the tractor ususally splits is behind the loader frame. I have seen several split tractors at my dealers over the years from using 3pt backhoes on small machines. The subframe is the way to go. LaryRB had a subframe Bradco on a Mahindra that worked very well. You could PM him and ask about it. He did a lot of research before buying it. I used the hoe and was impressed with its capabilities.

Andy

twin88cam · Feb 16, 2005

I have a small 3pt backhoe I use on a Ford 3000. The problem I have is as you dig the bh trys to lift itself up because there is no down pressure on the lift. There is a place for the subframe to mount on the hoe and I am in process of building a subframe and mount now. I want to buy a 2015 hst and this hoe is small enough to use on it with a mount. Just my opinion GO with the mount regardless of tractor size if for no reason but saftey.

KENB · Feb 16, 2005

Well, I've messaged in the past with LarryRB on his backhoe. Yes, he has the 511 and is impressed with it. I would be impressed also, but I don't know if my wallet would be too impressed. 8-10k for a subframe backhoe is a considerable chunk of change. I understand the concept of you get what you pay for, but to spend 8-10k on a backhoe??....well ... you better have alot of work to be done with it in order to justify that cost. The 3points are much less expensive, and besides you can find a used one, whereas finding a used Subframe backhoe that fits my Mahindra would be next to impossible. I don't think LarryRB is going to be selling his anytime soon! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Clyde · Feb 16, 2005

KenB - I'm running the subframe mount on my Wood's BH and for me - if I would have bought the 3pt, I would already have my tractor in for some serious repair work. I grub a lot of stumps out with mine and always look for ways to get the bucket in between large roots, looking for every bit of leverage I can get to snap off a big root. To think of the stress and strain that a BH can create to not only itself but also the enormous stress that is passed thru the 3pt and the rest of the tractor. The Mahindras already have a substantial frame under them and the sub frame mount just seems to take advantage of that design. I can see where a FEL mount adds to this rigidity but it has nothing to do with the 3pt hookup. Everything that backhoe does relies heavily on those small 3pt arms and while I'm not an equipment engineer, it just doesn't give me a lot of faith as far as the longevity of the tractor. A sub frame mount could run you as high as $850.00 more. It is worth every darn penny to me and that will be cheap compared to replacing a casting plus labor. Another point to think of and it's not in even using the backhoe for it's intended use but while in transport. Ever go down a path and hit a small pothole and you swear something just had to break somewhere? Do you want that shock passed to the 3pt hookup? Almost 1,000 lbs is hanging out there unsupported for that instant. Just the thought makes me cringe. The only "con" that I can think of is that it will be by luck if you ever sell the BH and try to find a perspective buyer with the same tractor. I don't think the subframe mount is readily adaptable to just any tractor but that is not to say that the backhoe is useless at that point. The next guy just has to pop for the mount for his tractor. Maybe your dealer just doesn't want to spend the time installing the subframe mount. I have too much money invested in my "toys" to take unneccesary chances. Hope this helps a little Ken.

Keith_B · Feb 16, 2005

( I understand the concept of you get what you pay for, but to spend 8-10k on a backhoe??)

You can get a lot of hoe work hired for $10K. In my area you can also find older TLB units for that kind of money that are in good shape to run for the kind of jobs you describe, but wouldn't hold up to the 12 hour a day work that the guys who run the hoes for a living require.

dbelisle · Feb 16, 2005

Ken , I have a 2810 HST with a 3375 Hoe on a sub frame and don't think I would be happy with a 3 point set up.

I got stuck real bad last year and had to use the BH and outriggers to pick up the back of the tractor and move it around 180 degrees. I then picked it up in the air with the BH so I could get planks under the tires. I am not sure how a 3PT hoe would stand up to that kind on abuse. With a sub frame it was a piece of cake.

If the 509 sub frame is like the 3375 , Dayco has done a great job. I goes on and off easy and you don't lose any ground clearance.

A lot would depend on what and where your digging, for the type of digging I do , I would not be happy with a 3PT hoe.

Dave in NH

jpm · Feb 16, 2005

ken i had a 3pt mount hoe on my 2810 IT WAS A PAIN IN THE A**
to line up and mount plus the large chance of body damage to you or tractor. Dr bills will easly use up any savings. I bought the sub frame kit and it was wroth every cent in time and safety .On my 4110 i got the 511 w/ subframe and it makes me smile every time

LarryRB · Feb 16, 2005

KenB,
Let me answer some of your concerns or at least what I think about the situation. You're getting a 509. I do not know what a 509 needs for pump capacity so we'll skip this part.. There is no way in ****, regardless of what hoe brand and, or it's cost where I would mount on a 4110 3 pt system.. I bought my machine from Johnsonautomotive. who is a frequent visitor here. They, are more than well versed in backhoes and Mahindra's in particular. I have never heard them ,ever, suggest a 3pt, especially on a 4110.. Yes, I had the 511 and it was big and powerful.. That 511 could whip the 4110 all over the place like a kids tonka toy if you let it. The 509 can too. Class one 3pts aren't enough strength to hold up and operate any hoe (I'm talking the 4110 only) I have operated AndyMA's 75D w/3 pt Woods 10 ft hoe.. The point being, one of his 3pt lift arms would equal at least four on a 4110. He also has some serious cross bracing added on which is similar to a four point rear system in a race car.. Those cross braces alone are a minimum 3/4" or 7/8" thick or even thicker.. The subframe is the way to go, whether a Bradco 509 or any other brand... I am afraid that buying a well used hoe for 2 grand, making it a 3pt, then using it, will only hurt both machine and the newly mounted hoe, and in a very short time, what will you have then? The other thing is, I know that Johnson auto can and has in the past, got modified subframes and does on rare occassion use a local welder who modifies or makes a custom frame for them... The cost wasn't out of line either...

johnsonauto · Feb 16, 2005

I would not recomend it, we repair alot of tractors,(non mahindra) other brand that people have put 3 pt units on. tractor broken in half, 3 pt mounts torn off, broken axle housing on the fords where the lower 3pt arm attaches to the axle, etc. If you install a non " Mahindra" ,or any other brand non OE supplier on that specific brand (Deere on a Deere etc) it will void the warranty if it breaks. If you do break something your going to go after the backhoe manufacturer for the repair not the tractor company. The subframe on the Mahindra/bradco 509 is and excellent setup, strong, easy on and off etc. The price of the Mahindra/bradco should not be that big of a difference of buying a new Bradco 3pt mount 509. At least in this part of the country. There is a dealer in the area selling red bradco's on the mahindras up here a little cheaper, gets them the sale sometimes, but have sold a few of those people subframes after the fact due to they where not happy and the dealer told them it was not needed and did not to sell them one.
I will tell anyone who comes in the door what ever brand of tractor you buy, spend the little extra and get the frame mounted hoe.

Scott

Gary_Sharbonno · Feb 17, 2005

KENB,
I just purchased a Mahindra 3375 sub frame bh ( made by Bradco ) for my 2810.
Let me tell you right now that this system is the ONLY way to go. I already had a ML108 fel on the machine. When I had the 3375 bh installed they removed the fel brackets and installed even larger frame brackets for the bh. This sub frame unit goes on and off with no trouble. I made a rolling rack for the bh when it is not on the tractor. I can roll the unit around the shop. This makes it twice as easy to install because I can rool the bh right where it needs to be for hookup. I am also running a pto pump. When you get the bh within 1 foot of the tractor just slip the pump on put the out riggers down lift and slide into place.
When I grab onto a stump that is well attached in the ground I can actually pull the tractor off of the ground. I have a thumb which is great for gathering logs and trash.
I garantee you a 3 pt would not perform like this sub frame.
Good luck on decision.
Gary

YanmarFever · Feb 17, 2005

We sell Yanmars tractors in Oregon, so far I have supplied 4 bell housings to customers because of 3 point backhoes.
The last one was to Daves tractor in California. His customer with an F18 yanmar & a backhoe you know the rest... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
(Dave fixed his tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
A frame mount is the only way to go. Im saving mad $$ for a backhoe for our new 4110.
Ernie

Varmintmist · Feb 17, 2005

Is there any reason that you cant get the 3 pt and have a welder make a subframe??

At 2K for the hoe even if you end up with a grand in welder work and a couple hundred in a PTO pump (if needed) you are still ahead.

Can you buy JUST a subframe from a dealer?? If so that and a good welder could make you a setup pretty quick.

Willman · Feb 18, 2005

Ken, I Purchased the Bradco 509 with my tractor purchase. It was around $7500 added to the tractor price.
I never had any experiance with a 3 point BH, but the way the Bradco subframe is made you can put the fears of breaking your tractor in half out of your mind.
Also Mahindra wil not warrant the tractor with any other BH setup.
It is a very beefy setup and Im happy with it.

AndyMA · Feb 18, 2005

( Is there any reason that you cant get the 3 pt and have a welder make a subframe??
)

A good fabricator can make anything so obviously it can be made. The real question is do you save money? To that I don't know the answer.

I think the other posters have made a good point about subframe vrs 3pt. even though I now run 3 pt on the TN (which is a real pain to mount and much more work than a subframe) It's all the rigid framing which LarryRB referrs to. The TN weighs about 9000 lbs loaded and the backhoe can bounce the heck out of it. I'm just glad that it bounces as a rigid unit. Even though as an engineer, I could calculate the forces, I rather not think about, let alone calculate them/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif That 11 foot arm with another 24" bucket adding another 2 feet to the lever makes for one heck of a lever. Combine that with the 6000 lb plus bucket curl force and you have a very powerful twisting moment arm.

Andy

Andy

BTW to me $10,000 on a backhoe is money well spent even if I only use it 50 hours a year. I need it virtually every day I am on my tractor and renting would never be an option unless I was just doing one project like a trench. I almost don't do a task where I don't use the backhoe to loosen soil, move rocks around, pull a root etc.

Andy

Latheman · Feb 18, 2005

I hear Woods now is offering loaders and backhoes for nearly all models of Mahindra. Their price for a subframe and backhoe for a 4110 should be less than what Mahindra is asking. I suggest to give them a look.

John

jerhutch · Mar 2, 2005

I have a Yanmar 330D and want to have a subframe built. Anyone have any pictures, drawings, ideas, instructions, etc to take to the welding shop?
Any help would be appreciated.
Jerry

KENB · Mar 2, 2005

What I find interesting is that MahindraUSA in Tomball, TX claims that if you put a 3 point backhoe on their tractor, and the tractor breaks in half, they will not honor the warranty on the tractor.
Now let me get this straight in my mind: My Mahindra dealer sells Mahindra tractors. My Mahindra dealer sells 3 point backhoes to mount on my Mahindra tractor. But it is an item that will void your warranty. Hmm.. Something not right here. I asked Mahindra about all this regarding the void of warranty. They said it only applied to BACKHOES. I asked where this "exclusion" was stated in the warranty. They said "we'll get back with you." I asked, why are there Mahindra dealers selling 3 point backhoes to be mounted on Mahindra tractors? They said "We'll get back with you on that too". Well, it has been a few weeks now, and I haven't heard a word from them. If 3 point backhoes void your warranty, somebody at MahindraUSA should inform the dealers!
I am glad to hear WOODS is selling backhoes with Mahindra subframes. Maybe prices for these will be reasonable.

YanmarFever · Mar 3, 2005

Are you sure that mahindra didnt mean (other brand ) of backhoes, and not their own ?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I can see them (not honoring) someone elses backhoe mistakes.

Mahindra backhoes have a sub frame where the others dont.
Its like putting a chip in your truck it voids the warranty.

I have a hard time with this too.
please keep us informed

DavesTractor · Mar 3, 2005

( We sell Yanmars tractors in Oregon, so far I have supplied 4 bell housings to customers because of 3 point backhoes.
The last one was to Daves tractor in California. His customer with an F18 yanmar & a backhoe you know the rest...
(Dave fixed his tractor.
)
Ernie, you are right about that, and we didn't even sell the guy the hoe. We sold over 60 backhoes last year, not one of them a three-point. Each one was a sub-frame. The guy that split his F18D wanted a 3-point hoe when he bought the tractor. I wouldn't sell it to him and explained why. He ignored my advice and bought a bargain three-point hoe elsewhere and installed it himself, then called me a few weeks later and said "Dave, you can say 'I told you so', or whatever, but my tractor snapped in half through the bellhousing after I mounted a three-point hoe, can you fix it?" Of course we did, with Ernie's help on parts, but the guy got an expensive lessen driven home.

I know of a couple of Branson and Mahindra dealers that don't like the expense of stocking subframes and the different backhoes, so they buy generic three-point backhoes. Instead, I sometimes will have 20 backhoes/subframes and 40 buckets in stock to try to make sure I can properly mount a Branson (Ameriquip) or Mahindra (KMW for the 15 series and Bradco for the others) tractor. It is much easier and cheaper to have a couple of skids of three-point hoes and push these inferior products, or at least inferior mounting, off on customers. Dealers that sell these would seem to put themselves into the position of taking care of any related damage not covered by Mahindra or Branson if warranty claims are denied due to damage caused as a result of a 3-point mounted hoe.

Just a side note, you are getting a lot more than just a subframe with the 509 or 511 hoe. This is an incredible machine, really in a class by itself when compared to other CUT hoes.