3rd function for my Kioti NX6010

[schoppy]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before but I am a newbie to this website so I will ask anyway. I am looking to get a 3rd function kit for my Kioti NX6010 to run the grapple arms on my rock grapple. I am wondering about the pros and cons of the diverter style vs. dedicated style. Is being able to operate all 3 functions at the same time better than diverting the curl function while you use the grapple? Is there a possibility of damaging anything with the dedicated type vs. the diverter type for the 3rd function?

Has anyone used the diverter style kit from Michigan Iron and Equipment?

Thanks for the help

 

[Coyote machine]

Also try Fit-Rite Hydraulics. Refer to my signature. Brian can probably steer you to what's needed....
I have items from both suppliers; both are excellent to work with- just depends on what you need for a specific task...

 

[countrybumpkin]

Have you spoke with your dealer, they should be able to install one.

 

[N2DFire]

There really should be a Sticky on the Diverter vs 3rd function debate. LOL

In a nut shell (and somewhat over simplified):
A Diverter is a On/Off device that simply selects which one of two paths fluid will take but does not control the actual flow of fluid itself. Flow control comes from the valve on the function (circuit) you are "diverting" (typically curl/dump function) to a new function. This will allow you to feather control of what ever you're controlling since it uses an existing proportional valve but you can only control one or the other at a time.
A diverter set-up will also cost less as it's mechanically simpler & requires fewer (and normally shorter) hoses.

A "3rd function" utilizes a separate solenoid operated valve to control fluid flow & direction. As such it is either Open or Closed (all or nothing) in either direction. Generally speaking it's plumbed in after the main loader valve via the "power beyond" line.
In principal - a 3rd function will allow you to operate all three functions at once because it's controlled by it's own valve. In reality most SCUT/CUT tractor hydraulic systems do not have the fluid flow to make this happen.

To see for yourself try lifting & dumping your loader at the same time. If you pull the stick all the way in both directions, it lifts and stops dumping - that's because the first function (Lift/Lower) is using all the available fluid flow and none is left for the curl/dump function. Now if you feather the stick into both functions then both actions happen together but both at a lower speed. That's because two functions are now sharing the fluid flow. You are restricting the first function (lift/lower) by only partially opening the valve so the "left over" flow is now used by the second function (curl/dump).

Unless you are very very delicate with the controls there will almost never be enough / any flow leftover to operate the third function and if it is, it would be earth shatteringly slow.

Also a 3rd function is more expensive mainly due to requiring more / longer hoses.


So at this point it's about whether or not you really NEED the ability to feather your 3rd function, the cost you're willing to pay, and which method seems most intuitive to you to use.
For me it sounded odd in my head trying to work the diverter set-up, others do this all the time and have no problems, and there are even some who have put the diverter on the lift/lower function so they could open/close and curl/dump easier. It all boils down to what works for you because once you're used to it, it's second nature.


All of that being said - MIE is in the process of developing what they claim will be a true proportional 3rd function valve kit. See this thread for more general info on Diverter vs 3rd function as well as more info on MIE's new offering.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/384106-mie-3rd-function-kit.html

Another option is to assemble your own 3rd function "kit" - several folks have done this as well. I have a write-up on the one I did for our CK series over in the Build it yourself forum.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/358086-kioti-ck-35-3rd-function.html

Photobucket stopped remote hosting and my thread lost all the pictures so I made an updated write-up as a downloadable PDF at the end of the thread.

 

[schoppy]

Great write up on your 3rd function kit N2DFire. From your description it appears you have the selector or "diverter" style 3rd function. How have you liked the operation of yours (I like the feathering possibility) or do you wish you had a true 3rd function style? Do you think the NX6010 would have enough hydraulic flow capacity to work 3 functions at the same time?

 

[N2DFire]

Great write up on your 3rd function kit N2DFire. From your description it appears you have the selector or "diverter" style 3rd function. How have you liked the operation of yours (I like the feathering possibility) or do you wish you had a true 3rd function style? Do you think the NX6010 would have enough hydraulic flow capacity to work 3 functions at the same time?

Actually ours is a 3rd function but it suffers from the same condition I describe. If I'm operating the loader lift/lower or curl/dump then the grapple lid won't operate. It's never been a big issue for me because I just hold down the thumb button for the grapple action I want (open/close) and as I feather off the loader controls the grapple starts to move & when I start moving the loader control again it stops.

Without looking at the specs on the 6010 my gut answer would be no. The first reason is as the tractor get bigger, the cylinders get bigger so the greater flow is eaten up. Basically everything got bigger in the same proportions.

Secondly - as I said before my explanation was also over simplified. On larger tractors and construction equipment, the hydraulic systems are different ( and it's here that I start losing any expertise I may have imagined I had). Some of the valves are "piloted" so as to always allow a portion of the flow to pass downstream even when the valve is in use.

The simplest test I can suggest is the one I outlined above. Start with your loader down, bucket flat on the ground and see if you can raise the loader & dump the bucket at the same time. Odds are, with full stick input, you'll raise but not dump.

If you give it a light input in both then it will raise & dump but both slower than either function alone.

Even so - I've never had a time where I really needed all three inputs at once and I've never needed the ability to feather the grapple closed on anything.

Your specific use & preference will dictate but I think that once you get used to either one you'd be equally happy. It's just a matter of understanding the limitations to each set-up.

 

[IvanS]

Even so - I've never had a time where I really needed all three inputs at once and I've never needed the ability to feather the grapple closed on anything.

Your specific use & preference will dictate but I think that once you get used to either one you'd be equally happy. It's just a matter of understanding the limitations to each set-up.

I actually always use the feather action on the grapple. I can pick up sticks that are 1/2" in diameter by judicious use of the diverter and curl valve. My setup is just a bit different, as I use a foot operated switch for the diverter operation. This allows me to focus on the action of the grapple and loader without using finger dexterity to actuate the diverter and operate the loader lift / curl - if that makes sense? I can open/close, curl and raise/lower the load on the fly now that I've gotten the hang of it.

Having the grapple "slam" closed is not even in the equation, it's always feathered. All that being said, I prefer the diverter valve as I don't have 3 hands - but I do have one hand to control two actions and one foot to coordinate a third function. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Fallon]

Great write up on your 3rd function kit N2DFire. From your description it appears you have the selector or "diverter" style 3rd function. How have you liked the operation of yours (I like the feathering possibility) or do you wish you had a true 3rd function style? Do you think the NX6010 would have enough hydraulic flow capacity to work 3 functions at the same time?

A much more appropriate question is do you have enough hands to operate 3+ functions at the same time.

Modern loader joysticks are plumbed in series & parallel, so you can lift & curl at the same time. But those are the only 2 functions that can run at the same time. Every other hydraulic system (except steering, which is usually seperate, more or less) is downstream in the power beyond loop & only the first activated valve will get any flow "starving" every valve downstream until it's no longer actuated.

Realistically you can only run 1 at a time anyway as you'll have a hand on the steering wheel. Unless you were activating a 3rd function button on the joystick (grapple, etc.) At the same time you were trying to lift/curl the loader. In that case only the first valve would work (probably the loader valve as it's usually the first in the PB loop).

 

[N2DFire]

I actually always use the feather action on the grapple. I can pick up sticks that are 1/2" in diameter by judicious use of the diverter and curl valve. My setup is just a bit different, as I use a foot operated switch for the diverter operation. This allows me to focus on the action of the grapple and loader without using finger dexterity to actuate the diverter and operate the loader lift / curl - if that makes sense? I can open/close, curl and raise/lower the load on the fly now that I've gotten the hang of it.

Having the grapple "slam" closed is not even in the equation, it's always feathered. All that being said, I prefer the diverter valve as I don't have 3 hands - but I do have one hand to control two actions and one foot to coordinate a third function. I hope that makes sense.

I've picked up a flat sheet of Tin roofing off the ground (without denting it) & I can't remember how big this tree branch was but it's not much larger than the grapple tines and everything sticking out of the grapple down was buried in the ground.
FWIW - all my 3rd function control lines are plumbed with 3/8" hose & couplings and not 1/2" so the fluid flow and thus "speed" is reduced. The only 1/2" line in my set-up is in the PB circuit.

Usually when I'm doing grapple / loader work I have one foot on the throttle & the other on the clutch (gear / shuttle) so working the 3rd function with my thumb is just handy / natural to me.


Like I sad before - it's a matter of preference and knowing the operating characteristics of each method. Once you get used to your equipment, you can pretty much do what you want.

 

[LD1]

Great write up explaining the difference.

I have nothing to add other than I have a diverter tied to the lift/lower circuit. Couldn't use the curl circuit as the valve is Regen only. And I actually like it better in the lift/lower circuit anyway for two reasons. 1. The forward and back motion makes more sense than left/right for a grapple. 2. I can detent in float and hold the diverter switch which makes hooking and unhooking easy since I don't have connect-under-pressure hoses.

I have never found myself lacking with the diverter, or feeling handicapped by not being able to operate grapple at the same time as lift/lower

 

[AWSubie]

I chose to go with a 3rd function on my NX5010. The pics show the basics of what I did. Of course there are many different ways that it can be done. I couldn't figure out how to rotate the pictures correctly, you'll have to save a screen shot and rotate them for easier viewing.



This pic shows the right aft wheel removed to see the access hole where I mounted the servo valve. There are existing threaded holes in the transmission casting that allow convenient mounting of a bracket to support the subplate and valve. This location is also near the loader valve so that splicing in to the power beyond (Kioti calls it "Carry over") is easy.



Close up of the servo valve. The power beyond line is 1/2 inch and the working port lines are 3/8.



This shows the routing of the working port lines to a bracket that I mounted just below the loader Quick Disconnects.



The Quick Disconnects for my grapple mounted in a simple hose clamp. Nothing fancy.



The clearance between the 3rd function Quick disconnects at the loader arm and the right front wheel in a hard right turn.

 

[schoppy]

Nice looking setup AWSubie. Was this a kit you purchased or did you buy everything yourself? Am I correct that it looks like you used steel lines along your loader or are they rubber the whole way? What did you use for a joystick handle? How much did everything cost you if I could ask?

Can you do all 3 functions at the same time? I operated my loader like N2DFire suggested. If I pulled the joystick full back and then slid it to the right or left I could not curl the bucket unless I feathered the raising of the loader first. I can actually get a little better function out of my 4600 John Deere but not a lot.

I'm thinking a diverter system tied into the lift function may be the way to go. I'm trying to decide whether to buy a premade kit like MIE sells or get the parts myself and install them.

N2DFire, if you're watching, how much did you have into your setup and were the parts readily available?

Thanks guys.

 

[N2DFire]

I'm thinking a diverter system tied into the lift function may be the way to go. I'm trying to decide whether to buy a premade kit like MIE sells or get the parts myself and install them.

N2DFire, if you're watching, how much did you have into your setup and were the parts readily available?

Of Course I'm still watching (especially since the boss is out today LOL).

You might be interested in this very recent thread where-in another fellow was wrestling with that very question. Some good comparison info & pricing there.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/383744-trying-construct-3rd-function.html

Cost is going to vary based on how simple or complex you go & where you shop. I think he said he finished up for about $360, My set-up was probably a little over $700.

I added several "extras" the kit's don't have (Hose protector sleeve on everything for example) or things you can do simpler / cheaper (I made a relay control box, others just used off the shelf auto relays).
I used a much more expensive sub-plate due to the port layout and I also replaced the entire grip knob, this user just bolted a switch to the existing grip.
I bought hoses locally, you can have them made online cheaper just be 100% sure of your measurements before you order.

On that note - Hoses are going to be the single most expensive item in the whole project (and the fittings are the most expensive part of the hose assembly) so keep in mind that a diverter (depending on where you mount the actual valve) will use fewer / shorter hoses than a 3rd function valve.

To answer your other question, yes components are readily available and from several places so sourcing parts shouldn't be an issue.

Either way you go 3rd function or diverter I still think you can assemble your own system cheaper and get as good or better results than pre-made kits.

Like I told the fellow in that other thread - all projects require 2 things: Time & Money. The more of one you have, the less you need of the other. Pre-made kits are more costly as a "convenience fee" for you not having to spend the time to source, fit, and assemble all the parts.

 

[MichiganIron]

Of Course I'm still watching (especially since the boss is out today LOL).

You might be interested in this very recent thread where-in another fellow was wrestling with that very question. Some good comparison info & pricing there.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/383744-trying-construct-3rd-function.html

Cost is going to vary based on how simple or complex you go & where you shop. I think he said he finished up for about $360, My set-up was probably a little over $700.

I added several "extras" the kit's don't have (Hose protector sleeve on everything for example) or things you can do simpler / cheaper (I made a relay control box, others just used off the shelf auto relays).
I used a much more expensive sub-plate due to the port layout and I also replaced the entire grip knob, this user just bolted a switch to the existing grip.
I bought hoses locally, you can have them made online cheaper just be 100% sure of your measurements before you order.

On that note - Hoses are going to be the single most expensive item in the whole project (and the fittings are the most expensive part of the hose assembly) so keep in mind that a diverter (depending on where you mount the actual valve) will use fewer / shorter hoses than a 3rd function valve.

To answer your other question, yes components are readily available and from several places so sourcing parts shouldn't be an issue.

Either way you go 3rd function or diverter I still think you can assemble your own system cheaper and get as good or better results than pre-made kits.

Like I told the fellow in that other thread - all projects require 2 things: Time & Money. The more of one you have, the less you need of the other. Pre-made kits are more costly as a "convenience fee" for you not having to spend the time to source, fit, and assemble all the parts.

All good stuff, just a couple comments:

When considering "Third-Function" kits, make sure they do not interrupt the Power-beyond circuit in the tractor. This can cause damage to the tractor hydraulic system.
Some "Third Function" kits are just on-off control, not allowing the operator to "feather" the control of the third function.
The "convenience fee" in our custom kits is the labor cost to cut and fabricate the custom brackets, assemble the hoses and fittings, set up the valves, etc. Our shop guys like a pay check just like everyone else.

Hope this helps...

 

[schoppy]

Thanks for the info guys.

One question for you at MIE, can your diverter or selector system be installed in either the curl line or the lift line for the loader? Have you had customers do it in the lift line before and how has that worked out?

Thanks again.

 

[LD1]

Thanks for the info guys.

One question for you at MIE, can your diverter or selector system be installed in either the curl line or the lift line for the loader? Have you had customers do it in the lift line before and how has that worked out?

Thanks again.

Not MIE but normally yes you can install it in either circuit....just a preference thing.

But you "may" not be able to install it in the curl circuit. Just depends on the valve.

There are 3 types of curl.
1. Standard non-regen valve. Yes you can install a diverter in this type
2. Regen valve that also has standard function. This would have a noticeable second step that you have to push past a detent. Kinda like loader lower vs float. And yes, diverter works in this too.
3. Regen only. No you cannot use a diverter on this. Technically you can, but the grapple will have only about 20-30% clamp force, and likely wont grip anything well enough to pick up.

Dont know what the NX has, perhaps others can chime in on that.

 

[AWSubie]

Schoppy: I bought everything myself based upon all the information that is on TractorByNet. I did use Kioti steel lines along the loader arm; because I thought it looked nice but... I don't think I would go this route again due to cost. Kioti wanted $98.81 for two steel tubes and a four-hole clamp plus they charged me $15 for shipping even though I picked them up at the Kioti dealer. I also bought British Standard Pipe Parallel (BSPP) adapters to for the tubes to mate up to 3/8 NPT male hoses. Hoses along the loader arm would have been much less expensive. I used the John Deere joystick handle that you read about on this site. I purchased it from the GreenPartsStore.com for $30.63 (includes shipping). The John Deere handle requires a slight modification of the Kioti joy stick. You must slot (elongate) one of the holes in the joy stick so that the bolt holes in the handle will align (at least that was my solution, easy to do with a dremel). Total cost to me was $806.69; however, I made mistakes in ordering parts costing me about $50. Also I ordered most components from Surplus Center and Discount Hydraulics where the total in shipping charges added up to $99.23, mainly due to my lack of experience with hydraulics and the different industry standards causing me to make several separate orders. Had I been experienced with hydraulics from the get go, I could have done my ordering in two batches of parts and saved greatly on shipping. So realistically, I think you can buy everything you need for a little over $600.

Can I do all 3 functions at the same time? Well...I don't know yet! I just ordered my grapple yesterday and I don't have another implement that uses the 3rd function. I did work with my tractor today and at 2600 engine RPM the loader had no problem raising and curling at the same time and I could make the ends of the 3rd function hoses "dance" by pushing the button (I realize this is not true test for the 3rd function since I did not have the cylinder to fill on the grapple (I bought a single lid grapple). The Kioti main pump supplies 9.6 gpm at 2600 rpm and this seemed more than adequate to operate both functions of the loader simultaneously.

If you like working with electrical, mechanical and hydraulic things I think you will enjoy the project whichever way you decide to go.

 

[schoppy]

Thanks AWSubie, I like doing a lot of that stuff myself just because I can and am pretty picky about my equipment. I will have to see how I go, dedicated or diverter system.

 

[MichiganIron]

Our kit can be installed in either the boom or bucket curl circuit. I can't remember anyone installing the kit in the boom function, but there isn't any reason why you couldn't. Normally, our customers want to be able to use the boom and 3rd function at the same time.

Hope this helps