4300 hst v 3010 hst

   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #11  
This is an interesting discussion, lets keep it going./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I believe the main advantage to indirect injected diesels is lower noise. The indirects can also turn higher RPMs than a direct injected diesel, which will give more power for a given displacement (for normally aspirated engines) than a direct injection. On the other hand, the direct injected diesels are more efficient, easier to start, and handle turbocharging better than indirects. In heavy duty applications I think you will find that almost all diesels are direct injection. The deciding factor may just be a matter of marketing. I know that in Europe and Japan the noise level of a product is a more important feature than the energy efficiency. This relates to mechanical products in general, not just tractors. In the USA, energy efficiency in the most important factor for most consumers, and diesel engine efficiency is especially important to farmers or contractors for whom tractor operating costs are crucial. With ever increasing requirements for fuel efficiecy here in the USA, especially for on-road vehicles, it is hard to believe that manufacturers will give up a 10-20% efficiency improvement in order to cut noise levels by a few dBs.

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   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #12  
You folks are very helpful. I've decided on the JD, but upped the hp to the 4600. I probably shouldn't have done that, but I don't want to look back and wish I had bought more tractor. It was a tough decision as I really liked the Kubota also. One significant factor was the operator presence system in the JD. Other than that, both had pluses (no real minuses), probably wouldn't go wrong with either. Thanks again.
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #13  
In 1985, all of Kubota's tractors that were over 22 hp used direct injection. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif Kubota has now moved to the next level of diesel engine technology with the "E-TVCS" engine. This indirect injection engine has a 3 vortex combustion system that is much more efficient than the typical indirect injection. Decibel readings were one concern but even more important to Kubota is the emissions of the engine. Kubota is the only small tractor that fully complies with the California Air Resources Board certification standards. The other company that you will find refusing to use the direct injection engines (for the very same reasons) is Mercedes-Benz. I hear an awful lot about Kubota "catching-up" to other manufacturers when in all actuality, they always seem to be 5-10 years ahead. Just goes to show what excellent marketing skills can do. (One area Kubota greatly lacks in...). I would be really curious to see the actual fuel economy ratings between Kubota's new engines and the direct-injection engines of Yanmar and Shibaura.

Why a clutch is needed on a hydrostat??? Two main reasons... one to meet the ASAE standards that define a farm tractor, and more importantly, cold weather starting. If you can disengage the transmission during starting, the engine starter won't have to also turn over the transmission and the charge pump. This results in longer life of batteries and starters.

Someone wanted a reaction from the "orange side" and I'll admit it... I took the bait. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #14  
<font color=blue>operator presence system </font color=blue>

What???? JD has a feature that tells you when you are on the tractor??? /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif What will they think of next??/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #15  
The tractor shuts down if you get off the seat with the PTO engaged. Just thinking about the kids when they drive the tractor. This may be a nuisance to some, but I think I like it. Again, the tractors run neck and neck to me and I just had to make a decision. This is my first tractor so I still have a lot to learn.
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #16  
My engineering experience is not in diesel engine design. I would also like to see an efficiency comparison between the various direct and indirect injection designs. Here is a excerpt from a reference written by Chevron which describes the difference between direct and indirect diesel engines. (I think John Miller III originally posted a link to the original paper)

The two fuel injection processes used in diesel engines, direct-injection (DI)
and indirect-injection (IDI), are illustrated in Figures 6-2 and 6-3. In a DI
engine, fuel is injected directly into the cylinder above the piston. In an IDI
engine, fuel is injected into a small prechamber connected to the cylinder via
a narrow passage that enters the prechamber tangentially. During the compression
process, air is forced through this passage, generating a vigorous swirling
motion in the prechamber. Then fuel is injected into the prechamber and ignition
occurs there. The combination of rapidly swirling air in the prechamber
and the jet-like expansion of combustion gases from the prechamber into the
cylinder enhances the mixing and combustion of the fuel and air.
The more rapid mixing of fuel and air achieved in IDI engines comes at a price,
however. The high velocity flow of air through the narrow passage connecting
the main cylinder to the prechamber, as well as the vigorous swirling motion
in the prechamber itself, causes the air to lose significantly more heat during
compression than it does in a DI engine. Coupled with a pressure drop from
the main chamber to the prechamber, this results in an air temperature in the
prechamber after compression that is lower than that in a similar DI engine.
Since rapid fuel autoignition requires a certain air temperature, an IDI engine
needs a higher compression ratio to achieve the desired air temperature in
the prechamber. IDI engines operate at compression ratios of about 20:1 to
24:1; while DI engines operate at ratios of about 15:1 to 18:1. The heat losses
that necessitate these higher compression ratios have another, more important
effect: they decrease the efficiency of the engine. IDI engines typically
achieve fuel efficiencies that are 10% to 20% lower, on a relative basis, than
comparable DI engines.
Even with the higher compression ratios, IDI engines may still be hard to start.
Most IDI engines use glow plugs to heat the air in the prechamber in order to
make starting easier. Glow plugs, which are small resistive heaters, are usually
powered for only the first few minutes of engine operation.
With the negative attributes of harder starting and lower efficiency, one may
wonder why IDI diesel engines are used at all. The answer is engine speed. As
an engine gets smaller, generally it must operate at higher speeds to generate
the desired power. As engine speed increases, there is less time per engine
cycle to inject, vaporize, mix, and combust the fuel. As a result, the higher
mixing rates afforded by IDI designs become necessary to achieve good
combustion at higher engine speeds. IDI diesels most commonly are used in
smaller automotive and light duty truck applications.

As to the question of a clutch on a hydrostatic, I can’t quite agree with your assessment. My understanding of a hydrostatic transmission is that there is a variable displacement pump piped to a fixed displacement motor, which in turn drives the output shaft of the transmission. If the hydrostatic controls are in neutral, then there is no oil being pumped, and thus no (or very little) additional load on the starter. My suspicion is that the foot clutch on the Kubota is a hold-over from their gear drive units to allow a disconnect for the PTO. The Deere 4000 series (except for the 4100) use a separate hand activated clutch for PTO engagement, which is entirely independent from the propulsion system. A much cleaner design in my opinion. Feel free to disagree. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif


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Computers don't make mistakes.... What they do, they do on purpose.
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst
  • Thread Starter
#17  
<font color=blue>...The indirects can also turn higher RPMs than a direct injected diesel, ...</font color=blue>

Michael,

Who told you that? No offense, but I think someone is feeding you a line...

Right now the problem is the Federal Govt./EPA with mainly emission problems on all diesels, direct & indirect injection.

Most all the improvements you see on both gasoline & diesel are the result of these govt. mandates. These hi-tech engines evolving into the market with multiple intake/exhaust valves, mushroomed head/piston designs, cross flow/swirl intake/combustion features, ribbed blocks, etc. etc. are only a few examples of this double-edged sword the govt. has handed the engine mfrs.

I think the bottom line is we end up with a much better product at a much higher cost.

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   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #18  
<font color=blue>The tractor shuts down if you get off the seat with the PTO engaged</font color=blue>

What about when you are using a PTO driven implement such as a log splitter or chipper that require you to be out of the seat?

Kevin
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #19  
Good question.....

I bet there is an override mechanism similar to what is on their riding mowers (for PTO to operate in reverse). However I will find out for sure. Still learning. I can't even come close to staying up with the direct/indirect discussion. I just hope I made the right decision with the 4600.
 
   / 4300 hst v 3010 hst #20  
<font color=blue>...The indirects can also turn higher RPMs than a direct injected diesel, ...</font color=blue> No offense taken./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif It's nice to know someone out there is keeping me on my toes. I got that information from the Chevron reference I posted above as well as reading similar writings from other sources. The direct injections are more limited at high RPMs due to the time necessary for all the fuel injected into the cylinder to mix with sufficient oxygen to support combustion. The fuel injection on an indirect injected diesel occurs several degrees of crankshft rotation sooner than on a direct injection in order to allow the combustion to start in the pre-chamber early enough such that the main charge of fuel/air mixture can be forced into the main chamber at the proper time. I agree that emissions are a major issue for diesel engines. The old two-cycle Detroit Diesel engines were very popular until the govenment clamped down on the pollution levels.



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